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 Post subject: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 12:05 pm 
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Obviously I'm not Catholic and...well I'm not exactly a good example of a Bapti-gelical these days either. Confused Christian is a possible category but No-Man's-Land sounds better.

Back in the day, being a Baptist youth minister with a job on the line, I thought it would be easier to be objective in my search if I wasn't coming from any particular tradition. A few years later and I'm no longer so certain. I've replaced one tradition with...well I'm not sure the replacement is a tradition, but I've replaced theological influences with a drifting, wandering, gelatinous, shifting theological worldview. It's just as hard to be objective in a small room as it is to be objective in the wide open. In some ways I'm les likely to find truth because I'm les committed to any truth. I suppose setting this as a problem is a good first step.

Anyone else deal with this back in the day?

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 12:11 pm 
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Another thought: I find I go through phases. There are times I feel more Catholic or Evangelical than others. During times when I feel more "evangelical" I find I have more confidence in theological topics but my faith in God and Christ feels weak, panicky and sometimes non existent. During the times when I feel more Catholic my confidence in certain theological topics seems weak and even unreasonable...but my faith in God, my trust in Christ, even my overall confidence in Christ is rock solid.

I'm not sure why there is this difference. One phase is like having a sturdy house on a shaky foundation. The other is like a leaky house that needs some work, but it's anchored firmly to the foundation and it ain't goin' nowhere.

Did anyone else experience this?

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:45 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:04 am 
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bumble wrote:
Another thought: I find I go through phases. There are times I feel more Catholic or Evangelical than others. During times when I feel more "evangelical" I find I have more confidence in theological topics but my faith in God and Christ feels weak, panicky and sometimes non existent. During the times when I feel more Catholic my confidence in certain theological topics seems weak and even unreasonable...but my faith in God, my trust in Christ, even my overall confidence in Christ is rock solid.

I'm not sure why there is this difference. One phase is like having a sturdy house on a shaky foundation. The other is like a leaky house that needs some work, but it's anchored firmly to the foundation and it ain't goin' nowhere.

Did anyone else experience this?


God cannot be intellectualized. Intellectualization is a work, and if it be works then it is no longer faith. That is why sometimes the theology is weak but the faith is strong.

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Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 6:28 am 
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I agree with Pax. Sometimes you know something that you can't really explain, but despite having "proof" or being able to put it into words (or even coherent thought), no one can take that certainty away from you. Being able to articulate it doesn't make it any more true--and being unable to articulate it doesn't automatically make it false.

Besides, if I had to choose, I'd much rather have faith in God than confidence in my own intellect. So I know which house I'd feel safer living in. :wink:

:pray: for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 8:40 am 
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pax wrote:
bumble wrote:
Another thought: I find I go through phases. There are times I feel more Catholic or Evangelical than others. During times when I feel more "evangelical" I find I have more confidence in theological topics but my faith in God and Christ feels weak, panicky and sometimes non existent. During the times when I feel more Catholic my confidence in certain theological topics seems weak and even unreasonable...but my faith in God, my trust in Christ, even my overall confidence in Christ is rock solid.

I'm not sure why there is this difference. One phase is like having a sturdy house on a shaky foundation. The other is like a leaky house that needs some work, but it's anchored firmly to the foundation and it ain't goin' nowhere.

Did anyone else experience this?


God cannot be intellectualized. Intellectualization is a work, and if it be works then it is no longer faith. That is why sometimes the theology is weak but the faith is strong.
How bout that!

The greater snare, IMHO, is when the theology is strong, but the faith is weak. As you said, intellectualization.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:50 am 
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Highlander wrote:
pax wrote:
bumble wrote:
Another thought: I find I go through phases. There are times I feel more Catholic or Evangelical than others. During times when I feel more "evangelical" I find I have more confidence in theological topics but my faith in God and Christ feels weak, panicky and sometimes non existent. During the times when I feel more Catholic my confidence in certain theological topics seems weak and even unreasonable...but my faith in God, my trust in Christ, even my overall confidence in Christ is rock solid.

I'm not sure why there is this difference. One phase is like having a sturdy house on a shaky foundation. The other is like a leaky house that needs some work, but it's anchored firmly to the foundation and it ain't goin' nowhere.

Did anyone else experience this?


God cannot be intellectualized. Intellectualization is a work, and if it be works then it is no longer faith. That is why sometimes the theology is weak but the faith is strong.
How bout that!

The greater snare, IMHO, is when the theology is strong, but the faith is weak. As you said, intellectualization.


Most of the Christian Religion is inexplicable. The Most Holy Trinity. The Incarnation. The virgin birth. The Real Presence. The Resurrection. "Jesus rose from the dead." "How did He do that?" "I dunno." "Jesus is really truly and substantially present in the Most Blessed Sacrament." "How so?" "I dunno." "Jesus was born of a Virgin." "How did He manage that?" "I dunno." "God became man in the Person of Jesus Christ." "How?" "I dunno." "God is three divine Persons, but He is one God." "?" "I dunno." That is Christianity. We just believe, and we pity all those who do not.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 1:46 pm 
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pax wrote:
Highlander wrote:
pax wrote:
bumble wrote:
Another thought: I find I go through phases. There are times I feel more Catholic or Evangelical than others. During times when I feel more "evangelical" I find I have more confidence in theological topics but my faith in God and Christ feels weak, panicky and sometimes non existent. During the times when I feel more Catholic my confidence in certain theological topics seems weak and even unreasonable...but my faith in God, my trust in Christ, even my overall confidence in Christ is rock solid.

I'm not sure why there is this difference. One phase is like having a sturdy house on a shaky foundation. The other is like a leaky house that needs some work, but it's anchored firmly to the foundation and it ain't goin' nowhere.

Did anyone else experience this?


God cannot be intellectualized. Intellectualization is a work, and if it be works then it is no longer faith. That is why sometimes the theology is weak but the faith is strong.
How bout that!

The greater snare, IMHO, is when the theology is strong, but the faith is weak. As you said, intellectualization.


Most of the Christian Religion is inexplicable. The Most Holy Trinity. The Incarnation. The virgin birth. The Real Presence. The Resurrection. "Jesus rose from the dead." "How did He do that?" "I dunno." "Jesus is really truly and substantially present in the Most Blessed Sacrament." "How so?" "I dunno." "Jesus was born of a Virgin." "How did He manage that?" "I dunno." "God became man in the Person of Jesus Christ." "How?" "I dunno." "God is three divine Persons, but He is one God." "?" "I dunno." That is Christianity. We just believe, and we pity all those who do not.


I agree with pax.

GKC

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 3:44 pm 
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GKC wrote:
pax wrote:
Highlander wrote:
pax wrote:
bumble wrote:
Another thought: I find I go through phases. There are times I feel more Catholic or Evangelical than others. During times when I feel more "evangelical" I find I have more confidence in theological topics but my faith in God and Christ feels weak, panicky and sometimes non existent. During the times when I feel more Catholic my confidence in certain theological topics seems weak and even unreasonable...but my faith in God, my trust in Christ, even my overall confidence in Christ is rock solid.

I'm not sure why there is this difference. One phase is like having a sturdy house on a shaky foundation. The other is like a leaky house that needs some work, but it's anchored firmly to the foundation and it ain't goin' nowhere.

Did anyone else experience this?


God cannot be intellectualized. Intellectualization is a work, and if it be works then it is no longer faith. That is why sometimes the theology is weak but the faith is strong.
How bout that!

The greater snare, IMHO, is when the theology is strong, but the faith is weak. As you said, intellectualization.


Most of the Christian Religion is inexplicable. The Most Holy Trinity. The Incarnation. The virgin birth. The Real Presence. The Resurrection. "Jesus rose from the dead." "How did He do that?" "I dunno." "Jesus is really truly and substantially present in the Most Blessed Sacrament." "How so?" "I dunno." "Jesus was born of a Virgin." "How did He manage that?" "I dunno." "God became man in the Person of Jesus Christ." "How?" "I dunno." "God is three divine Persons, but He is one God." "?" "I dunno." That is Christianity. We just believe, and we pity all those who do not.


I agree with pax.

GKC


A first!

And, hopefully, not a last.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:20 pm 
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pax wrote:
GKC wrote:
pax wrote:
Highlander wrote:
pax wrote:

God cannot be intellectualized. Intellectualization is a work, and if it be works then it is no longer faith. That is why sometimes the theology is weak but the faith is strong.
How bout that!

The greater snare, IMHO, is when the theology is strong, but the faith is weak. As you said, intellectualization.


Most of the Christian Religion is inexplicable. The Most Holy Trinity. The Incarnation. The virgin birth. The Real Presence. The Resurrection. "Jesus rose from the dead." "How did He do that?" "I dunno." "Jesus is really truly and substantially present in the Most Blessed Sacrament." "How so?" "I dunno." "Jesus was born of a Virgin." "How did He manage that?" "I dunno." "God became man in the Person of Jesus Christ." "How?" "I dunno." "God is three divine Persons, but He is one God." "?" "I dunno." That is Christianity. We just believe, and we pity all those who do not.


I agree with pax.

GKC


A first!

And, hopefully, not a last.


I don't think it's a first. But I couldn't cite another, off hand.

GKC

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 8:32 pm 
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bumble wrote:
Another thought: I find I go through phases. There are times I feel more Catholic or Evangelical than others. During times when I feel more "evangelical" I find I have more confidence in theological topics but my faith in God and Christ feels weak, panicky and sometimes non existent. During the times when I feel more Catholic my confidence in certain theological topics seems weak and even unreasonable...but my faith in God, my trust in Christ, even my overall confidence in Christ is rock solid.

I'm not sure why there is this difference. One phase is like having a sturdy house on a shaky foundation. The other is like a leaky house that needs some work, but it's anchored firmly to the foundation and it ain't goin' nowhere.

Did anyone else experience this?


When searching for the truth, some can fall in love with the search.

Don't fall in love with the search. Fall in love with the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:07 am 
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This is a little out in left field, but y'all have come to expect that. I heard JHN's hymn Lead Kindly Light for the first time a few days ago. I sang a lot of hymns growing up but never that one, which is a shame. I'm sorry I've missed it for so long but it is possible I would not have appreciated it at earlier points in my life.

Keep Thou my feet; I do not ask to see
The distant scene—one step enough for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:19 am 
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bumble wrote:
This is a little out in left field, but y'all have come to expect that. I heard JHN's hymn Lead Kindly Light for the first time a few days ago. I sang a lot of hymns growing up but never that one, which is a shame. I'm sorry I've missed it for so long but it is possible I would not have appreciated it at earlier points in my life.

Keep Thou my feet; I do not ask to see
The distant scene—one step enough for me.


On the contrary, that seems to be more or less the answer you have been looking for. If you would like a scriptural citation, try John 21:21-22.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:02 am 
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pax wrote:
Most of the Christian Religion is inexplicable. The Most Holy Trinity. The Incarnation. The virgin birth. The Real Presence. The Resurrection. "Jesus rose from the dead." "How did He do that?" "I dunno." "Jesus is really truly and substantially present in the Most Blessed Sacrament." "How so?" "I dunno." "Jesus was born of a Virgin." "How did He manage that?" "I dunno." "God became man in the Person of Jesus Christ." "How?" "I dunno." "God is three divine Persons, but He is one God." "?" "I dunno." That is Christianity. We just believe, and we pity all those who do not.

I don't think it's quite correct to say that these things are inexplicable. Of course they cannot be fully explained, but we can do better than "I dunno," at least for some of the faithful.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:26 am 
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Bagheera wrote:
pax wrote:
Most of the Christian Religion is inexplicable. The Most Holy Trinity. The Incarnation. The virgin birth. The Real Presence. The Resurrection. "Jesus rose from the dead." "How did He do that?" "I dunno." "Jesus is really truly and substantially present in the Most Blessed Sacrament." "How so?" "I dunno." "Jesus was born of a Virgin." "How did He manage that?" "I dunno." "God became man in the Person of Jesus Christ." "How?" "I dunno." "God is three divine Persons, but He is one God." "?" "I dunno." That is Christianity. We just believe, and we pity all those who do not.

I don't think it's quite correct to say that these things are inexplicable. Of course they cannot be fully explained, but we can do better than "I dunno," at least for some of the faithful.


Yes. It is an over-simplification. We have words and we have philosophical treatises on how these things came to be and do exist, but in the end, once we have exhausted our own capacity to know, we inevitably reach the point where we just have to say "I dunno."

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:17 am 
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- I try to have a little something for everybody in my posts. If you notice a spelling, grammar, or punctuation error... well... I put that in for you.

- I remember a lot of things. (Some of which actually happened.)

- Even the best of men may be born in times unsuited to their virtues.


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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:33 am 
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Question, had you intellectualized the relationship like this, would you have ever married your wife?

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:43 am 
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:shock: :shock: :shock:
kage_ar wrote:
Question, had you intellectualized the relationship like this, would you have ever married your wife?

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:30 am 
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:scratch: what is shocking... it all comes down to faith, hope and love. The greatest of these is love.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispatches from No-Man's-Land
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:07 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
When searching for the truth, some can fall in love with the search.

Don't fall in love with the search. Fall in love with the truth.


Wow...that is profound. I need to keep that handy. Thanks, Peetem! :wave

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