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 Post subject: Catholic Doctrine of Creation
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:57 pm 
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The Kolbe Center on The Traditional Catholic Doctrine of Creation from my understanding of this article:

http://www.kolbecenter.org/the-traditional-catholic-doctrine-of-creation/

I don't expect any of your to read it all, but I simply wanted to discuss what I thought was a Catholic's freedom to subscribe to evolution.
It's my understand we can hold to evolution but it must not be at the expense of Catholic doctrines; such as Adam being a literal person.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic Doctrine of Creation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:24 am 
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Dominic wrote:
The Kolbe Center on The Traditional Catholic Doctrine of Creation from my understanding of this article:

http://www.kolbecenter.org/the-traditional-catholic-doctrine-of-creation/

I don't expect any of your to read it all, but I simply wanted to discuss what I thought was a Catholic's freedom to subscribe to evolution.
It's my understand we can hold to evolution but it must not be at the expense of Catholic doctrines; such as Adam being a literal person.


Truth be told, I think before we even take up a question like this, it has to be admitted that the term "evolution" is too much of a moving target to really answer the question unequivocally. If by evolution you simply mean that God fashioned the body of the first man out of pre-existing matter that at one time was alive over a long period of time, then I see no problem. This would be the theory of common ancestry. But, when people invoke evolution, they are usually not talking merely about a generic idea of common ancestry, but about the mechanisms by which evolution could take place. And it is here where there is not only any scarce scientific evidence to hang your hat, but that you will find as many ideas as you will biologists. This is largely where metaphysical presuppositions are the main guiding force in developing a theory of what mechanisms could allow for the evolutionary process. So, the trick here is making a statement that "Yes, I think a Catholic is free to subscribe to "evolution" (an idea of common ancestry)" without it being received as "Yes, I think a Catholic is free to subscribe to "evolution" (a mechanism that is materialistic and requires no divine intervention or teleology.)

Lastly, usually absent from this discussion is the elephant in the room of the origin of life itself. Even though it is cleverly shielded from view, there is absolutely nothing in modern science to give us any explanation of the origin of life itself without divine intervention.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic Doctrine of Creation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:08 am 
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forumjunkie wrote:
Dominic wrote:
The Kolbe Center on The Traditional Catholic Doctrine of Creation from my understanding of this article:

http://www.kolbecenter.org/the-traditional-catholic-doctrine-of-creation/

I don't expect any of your to read it all, but I simply wanted to discuss what I thought was a Catholic's freedom to subscribe to evolution.
It's my understand we can hold to evolution but it must not be at the expense of Catholic doctrines; such as Adam being a literal person.


Truth be told, I think before we even take up a question like this, it has to be admitted that the term "evolution" is too much of a moving target to really answer the question unequivocally. If by evolution you simply mean that God fashioned the body of the first man out of pre-existing matter that at one time was alive over a long period of time, then I see no problem. This would be the theory of common ancestry. But, when people invoke evolution, they are usually not talking merely about a generic idea of common ancestry, but about the mechanisms by which evolution could take place. And it is here where there is not only any scarce scientific evidence to hang your hat, but that you will find as many ideas as you will biologists. This is largely where metaphysical presuppositions are the main guiding force in developing a theory of what mechanisms could allow for the evolutionary process. So, the trick here is making a statement that "Yes, I think a Catholic is free to subscribe to "evolution" (an idea of common ancestry)" without it being received as "Yes, I think a Catholic is free to subscribe to "evolution" (a mechanism that is materialistic and requires no divine intervention or teleology.)

Lastly, usually absent from this discussion is the elephant in the room of the origin of life itself. Even though it is cleverly shielded from view, there is absolutely nothing in modern science to give us any explanation of the origin of life itself without divine intervention.

FJ


If I may I'd like to expand on your definition of evolution, for clarity, stop me if you disagree;

Evolution is not;

A statement about the existence of God.
A theory about the origin of life.
A theory of history, politics or sociology.
Nor claim things get "better" only that they are more adapted for the context in which they live


Rather Evolution is;

A theory about how new species develop over time from older species, through genetic information being modified slightly by each generations, in a large part due to natural selection which favors physical traits that are better for survival.

However you are write to say that "evolution" is sometimes lumped together with the materialist theories about the origin of life and the universe, Evolution per se, does not necessarily conflict with the Catholic Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic Doctrine of Creation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:02 am 
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forumjunkie wrote:
Dominic wrote:
The Kolbe Center on The Traditional Catholic Doctrine of Creation from my understanding of this article:

http://www.kolbecenter.org/the-traditional-catholic-doctrine-of-creation/

I don't expect any of your to read it all, but I simply wanted to discuss what I thought was a Catholic's freedom to subscribe to evolution.
It's my understand we can hold to evolution but it must not be at the expense of Catholic doctrines; such as Adam being a literal person.


Truth be told, I think before we even take up a question like this, it has to be admitted that the term "evolution" is too much of a moving target to really answer the question unequivocally. If by evolution you simply mean that God fashioned the body of the first man out of pre-existing matter that at one time was alive over a long period of time, then I see no problem. This would be the theory of common ancestry. But, when people invoke evolution, they are usually not talking merely about a generic idea of common ancestry, but about the mechanisms by which evolution could take place. And it is here where there is not only any scarce scientific evidence to hang your hat, but that you will find as many ideas as you will biologists. This is largely where metaphysical presuppositions are the main guiding force in developing a theory of what mechanisms could allow for the evolutionary process. So, the trick here is making a statement that "Yes, I think a Catholic is free to subscribe to "evolution" (an idea of common ancestry)" without it being received as "Yes, I think a Catholic is free to subscribe to "evolution" (a mechanism that is materialistic and requires no divine intervention or teleology.)

Lastly, usually absent from this discussion is the elephant in the room of the origin of life itself. Even though it is cleverly shielded from view, there is absolutely nothing in modern science to give us any explanation of the origin of life itself without divine intervention.

FJ


Ok......common ancestry is what I was thinking. Philosophically, there is a problem.......I was aware of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic Doctrine of Creation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:07 am 
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Dominic wrote:
forumjunkie wrote:
Dominic wrote:
The Kolbe Center on The Traditional Catholic Doctrine of Creation from my understanding of this article:

http://www.kolbecenter.org/the-traditional-catholic-doctrine-of-creation/

I don't expect any of your to read it all, but I simply wanted to discuss what I thought was a Catholic's freedom to subscribe to evolution.
It's my understand we can hold to evolution but it must not be at the expense of Catholic doctrines; such as Adam being a literal person.


Truth be told, I think before we even take up a question like this, it has to be admitted that the term "evolution" is too much of a moving target to really answer the question unequivocally. If by evolution you simply mean that God fashioned the body of the first man out of pre-existing matter that at one time was alive over a long period of time, then I see no problem. This would be the theory of common ancestry. But, when people invoke evolution, they are usually not talking merely about a generic idea of common ancestry, but about the mechanisms by which evolution could take place. And it is here where there is not only any scarce scientific evidence to hang your hat, but that you will find as many ideas as you will biologists. This is largely where metaphysical presuppositions are the main guiding force in developing a theory of what mechanisms could allow for the evolutionary process. So, the trick here is making a statement that "Yes, I think a Catholic is free to subscribe to "evolution" (an idea of common ancestry)" without it being received as "Yes, I think a Catholic is free to subscribe to "evolution" (a mechanism that is materialistic and requires no divine intervention or teleology.)

Lastly, usually absent from this discussion is the elephant in the room of the origin of life itself. Even though it is cleverly shielded from view, there is absolutely nothing in modern science to give us any explanation of the origin of life itself without divine intervention.

FJ


Ok......common ancestry is what I was thinking. Philosophically, there is a problem.......I was aware of that.


Yes... Also, we are talking only about the body. The human soul cannot be a product of evolution. Therefore, even the body takes on a new form when the first human is created. IOW, the body can only evolve naturally to a point... perhaps to some primate very close in appearance to a human. But, then it does require a special act of creation for God to take this body and provide the last step where this material is informed by a rational soul. The resulting creature is not merely the previous animal's body with a rational soul. That would mean that the soul does nothing to form the body. Rather, a completely different creature is fashioned by a supernatural intervention.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic Doctrine of Creation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:36 am 
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forumjunkie wrote:
Yes... Also, we are talking only about the body. The human soul cannot be a product of evolution. Therefore, even the body takes on a new form when the first human is created. IOW, the body can only evolve naturally to a point... perhaps to some primate very close in appearance to a human. But, then it does require a special act of creation for God to take this body and provide the last step where this material is informed by a rational soul. The resulting creature is not merely the previous animal's body with a rational soul. That would mean that the soul does nothing to form the body. Rather, a completely different creature is fashioned by a supernatural intervention.

FJ


Right......it's useless to speak of evolution and the soul. Anything supernatural for that matter. Evolution makes no attempt to deal with anything not material.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic Doctrine of Creation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:43 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
The Kolbe Center on The Traditional Catholic Doctrine of Creation from my understanding of this article:

http://www.kolbecenter.org/the-traditional-catholic-doctrine-of-creation/

I don't expect any of your to read it all, but I simply wanted to discuss what I thought was a Catholic's freedom to subscribe to evolution.
It's my understand we can hold to evolution but it must not be at the expense of Catholic doctrines; such as Adam being a literal person.


I find the work of the Kolbe Centre to be very interesting, but you do have to take what they say with a pinch of salt. And I say that as an individual that would generally side with them on the "Creationist" vs "Evolution" debate.

As a Catholic you must believe that God created from nothing. That He created ex nihilo. You must believe that Adam and Eve were real people and that they are our first parents, and that their souls were a product of direct supernatural creation and not by a evolutionary material process guided by God. You must believe that Adam and Eve committed the Original Sin, and that are all born in the state of Original Sin, thus necessitating the Redeemer to save us, and the waters of baptism to regenerate us.

As long as you profess the above points, then you are at free liberty to explore the mechanics of Creation until your heart's content. :)

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