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 Post subject: re: the Maccabees
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:16 am 
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How was it possible for the one of the Maccabees to be the high priest of the Jewish people when they were not Levites?

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 Post subject: Re: re: the Maccabees
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:19 am 
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'Maccabee' was a title, not a formal name, after the first generation passed, the second and later generations of Maccabees were not actually blood relations of Judah and his four brothers....

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 Post subject: Re: re: the Maccabees
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:30 am 
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Doom wrote:
'Maccabee' was a title, not a formal name, after the first generation passed, the second and later generations of Maccabees were not actually blood relations of Judah and his four brothers....


what did the title signify?

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 Post subject: Re: re: the Maccabees
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:38 am 
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Louis-Marie Flambeau wrote:
Doom wrote:
'Maccabee' was a title, not a formal name, after the first generation passed, the second and later generations of Maccabees were not actually blood relations of Judah and his four brothers....


what did the title signify?


It was originally a nickname of Judas Maccabee, there are several competing theories as to what the nickname meant....

One explanation is that it originated from the Aramaic word for 'hammer', so it would literally be 'Judas the Hammer' and was an honorific based on his ferocity in battle.

Another theory is that it is derived from the battle cry used by Judas and his brothers '"Mi chamocha ba'elim YHWH",' or roughly Who is like You among the mighty, O Lord!"

Another theory is that it is a corruption of "Machbanai" who was a commando in the army of King David.

It became a kind of title (like 'Caesar' among the Romans) to represent the Hasmonean dynasty, which ruled the kingdom of Judah from 140 BC to the establishment of the Herodian dynasty in 37 BC.

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 Post subject: Re: re: the Maccabees
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:54 am 
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Louis-Marie Flambeau wrote:
How was it possible for the one of the Maccabees to be the high priest of the Jewish people when they were not Levites?
I can somewhat question your premise.

According to 1 Maccabees 2:1, Mattathias, the father, was a priest who left Jerusalem and settled in Modein. So the initial "Maccabee" family was Jewish and priestly. Whether they (or later followers) were eligible to be HIGH-priest could be another question.


Edward Pothier


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 Post subject: Re: re: the Maccabees
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:35 pm 
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The high priesthood also changed hands several times at the whim of Antiochus Epiphanes, much like when the Romans gave the position to whomever they wanted.

Bit off topic also, but because Antiochus Epiphanes is one of the main precursors to the Antichrist, and several high priests were disposed of during his reign, it could be an indication of what may happen to a future pope. Countless private revelations may indicate that this may be the case also.

I concur with Edwards post as well, but am also not familiar with what would make one eligible for the role of high priesthood according to Jewish law.

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 Post subject: Re: re: the Maccabees
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:19 am 
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According to Josephus, Onias was descended from Juddea listed as a Levite in Nehemiah 12:11.

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 Post subject: Re: re: the Maccabees
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:39 am 
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anawim wrote:
According to Josephus, Onias was descended from Juddea listed as a Levite in Nehemiah 12:11.


Yes but the thread starters quesion was to do with the legitimacy of the Maccabees to become high priests and not Onias, who it seems was a Levite. As Edward pointed out though it also seems so too where the Maccabees.

My problem with the question was why wasn't one of Onias's brothers or close heirs chosen instead;

This link seems to answer that question;

Source: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... lected.htm

Ofcourse Onias's brother Jason did usurp the high priesthood from his brother, but it seems that he was unworthy(2Maccabees4:7-17). Jason was subsequently replaced by Men-e-la'us, there is some dispute about him. Josephus claims he was also a brother of Onias lll and Jason, while 2Maccabees states that was the brother of Simon from the tribe of Benjamin(2Maccabees3:4, 4:3). As we Catholics regard Maccabees as inspired we would have to go with the account from Maccabees. The Jews also accept that Josephus was more than likley confusing Simon(or Simeon) the brother of Men-e-la'us with Simeon the father of Onias and Jason.

Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... 9-menelaus

The other question that I had in mind was, who exactly chose the high priest if a heir or brother of an existing high priest was considered unfit, the previous link that I posted seems to be correct in stating that the king could do it(1Kings2:26-27, 1Kings2:35). Where it is possible that the king could not do it, it seems that the Sanhedrin would have a say in who was appointed high priest.

I still don't understand how a non Levite such as Men-e-la'us could be considered a legitimate high priest though, but then I'm not sure about Caiaphas either. I'm pretty sure his father in law Annas was a Levite, but would that have made Caiaphas a legitimate heir, it seems that God still used Caiaphas to prophecy for example(John11-49-53).

It is also interesting that some Jewish traditions claim that Solomon replaced Abiathar with Zadok, because the Holy Spirit had left Abiathar and he could not longer consult of the Urim and Thummim, which gave the Jewish high priests a kind of pseudo infallibility.

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 Post subject: Re: re: the Maccabees
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:43 am 
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Jerome_2 wrote:
It is also interesting that some Jewish traditions claim that Solomon replaced Abiathar with Zadok, because the Holy Spirit had left Abiathar and he could not longer consult of the Urim and Thummim, which gave the Jewish high priests a kind of pseudo infallibility.


It wasn't just Jewish Tradition. It's in Scripture. David elevated Zadok who was already a priest serving with Abiathar (1 Chr. 29:22). His genealogy is listed by Ezra 7:1 as descending from Phineas.

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 Post subject: Re: re: the Maccabees
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:27 am 
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anawim wrote:
It wasn't just Jewish Tradition. It's in Scripture. David elevated Zadok who was already a priest serving with Abiathar (1 Chr. 29:22). His genealogy is listed by Ezra 7:1 as descending from Phineas.


Yes I know it's in scripture, that is why I quoted it earlier; :wink:

Quote:
the previous link that I posted seems to be correct in stating that the king could do it(1Kings2:26-27, 1Kings2:35).


The part I was referring to was the Holy Spirit leaving Abiathar so that he couldn't consult the Urim and Thummim, I don't remember any reference to that being made in scripture, although I could be wrong. Also are you sure you got your reference right in 1Chronicles29:22?

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