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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:15 pm 
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ellietrish wrote:
HalJordan wrote:
ellietrish wrote:
HalJordan wrote:
It didn't help that the CCC talks about how expiation is a legitimate reason to use capital punishment then changes the context to talk about the safety of society. It's a very jarring transition.


HalJordan, which are the particular sentences that say that expiation is a legitimate reason to use capital punishment. This seems to be where the confusion lies for people because I can't pull that out of the text in the way you've said it.


I'm specifically talking about Sec. 2266. It mentions expiation (which you've been shown before is the traditional teaching of the Church), then muddles it up with the duty of defense.


It only mentions that there is an expiation value if the offender is personally repentant. It doesn't say that the legitimate authority has any power to extract such atonement value. That we assume is God alones power. By that I would assume that legitimate authority is only authorised to tend to the common good, public safety. Even the medicinal value is dependent on the free will of the offender in being open to correction.


This has all been explained to you at least once before in the Americanism thread in apologetics. Here again is the link that was given to you then:

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives ... re_014.htm

Why is Pope Pius XII (and St. Pius X and every other pope who has discussed the subject) wrong?

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I don't think you mean expiation. Don't you mean retribution? Expiation is a medicinal end.


That's part of the problem, right? Doesn't it conflate the two? I don't recall there being any mention of the retributive end at all.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:34 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
ellietrish wrote:
Under the new Covenant, there is no authority ‘to kill the wrongdoer’ though.
You are quite simply wrong. Or you are confusing legitimate government with individual Christians (private citizens). What do you make of St. Paul’s imperative in Rom 13:1-7, after the establishment of the new Covenant?

    Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. (Emphasis added)


ellietrish wrote:
My New Jerome Biblical Commentary says that the sword is introduced as the symbol of penal authority in this passage, It denotes the power legitimately possessed by civil authorities to coerce recalcitrant citizens to maintain order and strive for th common goal.
Did I say otherwise? My point is that capital punishment is part of that. But the imagery itself suggests that this has the pontential of deadly force.

ellietrish wrote:
The passage uses the word 'execute' not as in 'kill' the wrongdoer, but to 'carry out' the God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
Yes, I know. And that can include capital punishment. I’m not saying that I’m for it, I’m saying that it isn’t intrinsically evil, and can sometimes be necessary. In Norway, where I live, we do not have the death penalty. But if we did, it is my opinion that people like Anders Behring Breivik (who killed 69 people, mainly young teenagers on July 22, 2011) should get the death penalty. In fact, I’m embarresed at how lax some of the punishments in Norway are. In Norway you can get 21 years of prison (where a prison year is 9 months!), and you do not get judged individually for every wrongdoing. So a person who kills 10 people only get 21 years of prison, not 210.

ellietrish wrote:
You'd have to make a huge leap to use this passage beyond the command to obey authority under pain of disciplinary force.
Why? The text is quite clear: “But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.” In fact, the literal meaning is quite clear.

ellietrish wrote:
And why would the Church deem CP 'cruel and unnecessary' at this time unless it was beholden to public health rather than to the civil authorities appeal to a divine right?
I’m not sure what you mean here.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Why on Earth would someone use the imagery of a 'sword' if he did not intend the power to kill? What else is a sword for? To shave a giant? If he meant merely the ability to punish but not mean to kill, it is safe to say that Paul employed the worst possible choice of imagery to express that idea.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Why on Earth would someone use the imagery of a 'sword' if he did not intend the power to kill? What else is a sword for? To shave a giant? If he meant merely the ability to punish but not mean to kill, it is safe to say that Paul employed the worst possible choice of imagery to express that idea.


You know, I've heard some unsavoury males use the same justification for the male appendage. God gives us many abilities and powers, but He didn't mean that we just use them willy nilly at our own whim. At all times we are open to His commands and we use His gifts and powers wisely lest we are stripped of our glory and shamed.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:


ellietrish wrote:
The passage uses the word 'execute' not as in 'kill' the wrongdoer, but to 'carry out' the God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
Yes, I know. And that can include capital punishment. I’m not saying that I’m for it, I’m saying that it isn’t intrinsically evil, and can sometimes be necessary.


I’m saying that too, not least because that is the position of the Church, but it makes a lot of sense as well. There have been and will again be no doubt, periods in world history where a very severe discipline is necessary to wrest humanity away from evil forces.

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In Norway, where I live, we do not have the death penalty. But if we did, it is my opinion that people like Anders Behring Breivik (who killed 69 people, mainly young teenagers on July 22, 2011) should get the death penalty. In fact, I’m embarresed at how lax some of the punishments in Norway are. In Norway you can get 21 years of prison (where a prison year is 9 months!), and you do not get judged individually for every wrongdoing. So a person who kills 10 people only get 21 years of prison, not 210.


In Australia where I live we don’t have a death penalty either. It was done away with before my time as something that wasn’t in keeping with a person’s dignity. It was never about whether individual cases deserved it or whether an innocent person could be killed… it’s always been about the bigger meaning and how the mentality of sanctioned killing promotes and nurtures a culture of death in the dark shadows of “It’s my God given right!!”

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ellietrish wrote:
You'd have to make a huge leap to use this passage beyond the command to obey authority under pain of disciplinary force.
Why? The text is quite clear: “But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.” In fact, the literal meaning is quite clear.


The hand that wields the sword is not automatically given the mandate to use it for deadly ends. It can stay sheathed and be a sign of authority and its potential to enforce order, but Jesus also gave a reprimand to an Apostle for using his sword in a way not in keeping with the dignity of a person and there’s nothing to say that God doesn’t feel the same way about others who hold the sword He put in their hands.

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ellietrish wrote:
And why would the Church deem CP 'cruel and unnecessary' at this time unless it was beholden to public health rather than to the civil authorities appeal to a divine right?
I’m not sure what you mean here.


The Church says it’s ‘cruel and unnecessary’ to use Capital Punishment in this day and age. That clearly indicates that the Church treats Capital punishment as a dispensation to be used sparingly and in relation to the conditions of the time we live in but most importantly, always with utmost sensitivity to Gods will. Not as a super toy that’s subject to the whim of the ‘sword bearer’.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of the Church
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:47 pm 
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Please take this discussion up elsewhere.

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