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 Post subject: Growth Through Suffering
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:59 pm 
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Growth through suffering. A magnificent story about some special people:

http://www.teamhoyt.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:04 pm 
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This is extremely helpful to me. Thank you very much! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:36 pm 
I apologise firstly if what I say offends anyone. I truly want to find answers in Christ.
The article says that suffering comes from God.
My daughter was sexually abused as a child. Then 2 years ago she suffered a vicious rape by 2 men. Both these incidents have lead her to feeling her life is worthless and that she is a worthless person. They have also lead her to develop anorexia-purging which is one of the severest forms of eating disorder. She has also attempted to take her life 3 times.
One day I know she will ask me “here was God when I was 4 years old to 8 years old and bad things happened?”
“And where was He when I was raped repeatedly and brutely. Did my mental health problems(severe post traumatic shock syndrome) happen because I wasn’t patient enough to endure what happened” Or will she ask”should I be happy because I was raped, And was God happy that I was raped?”
As I said I am looking for answers in Faith.
So far I would say to her that these things happened because sin is in the world. I would not tell her that God caused these things to happen but rather He allowed them to happen.
And I would say that He was with her in both situations with arms embracing her and tears sweeping down His face.
I would tell her He still holds her close to Him in His heart and that He alone can bring about her healing and restoration.
But I would appreciate any help and ideas from those in Christ.
For me as a mother the worst kind of suffering is watching helplessly the suffering your child has endured and continues to endure. Our Blessed Mther at the foot of the cross is where I take my prayers.


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:55 pm 
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Quote:
So far I would say to her that these things happened because sin is in the world. I would not tell her that God caused these things to happen but rather He allowed them to happen.


And this would be the correct explanation.

Sometimes we speak in certain ways where it seems as if God is the cause of sin, such as in the OT we hear that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart". But God never positively wills sin, but allows it to happened as you said.

Theologians distinguish between God's positive Will and His permissive Will. Sometimes when we speak about the latter it sounds like we are speaking of the former, but this is simply a limitation of our language and idiom.

In any case, I am very sorry to hear that such horrible things have happened to your daughter. Rest assured that God did not positively will for such things to happen, but only allowed them to happen.

And BTW, welcome to the forum.

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Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:10 pm 
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Booklover wrote:
As I said I am looking for answers in Faith.


These are the hardest things to understand, and perhaps ultimately, impossible to understand. yet in our suffering, if we cling to the cross, we have a God who suffers with us. He deserved it less than any person who ever lived, and yet went through it; not only because he loved us, but it is important to remember, even though we did not love him.

This is the hard part, to pick up our cross and follow Him. I've often thought, that if we were told that if we were to endure the suffering we are struggling against, and in reward, would be given $100 million, would that not change our attitude towards enduring the suffering? Yet, we have been given so much more, as to make that $100m only a speck of dirt, and we cry that it is too much.

It is the price of Freedom; not the 4th of July kind, but the kind that "makes all things new," which allows God to die, that we may live. Stunned and finally lost for words, before this, I can only say, "not my will, but thine be done."

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"You seek me", St. Augustine comments, "for the flesh, not for the spirit. How many seek Jesus for no other purpose than that He may do them good in this present life! [...] Scarcely ever is Jesus sought for Jesus' sake" (In Ioann. Evang, 25, 10).

“therefore is my people led away captive, because they have not knowledge … therefore hath hell enlarged her mouth without any bounds” (Is 5:13-14).

But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Mt 24:13)


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:27 pm 
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This is a great thread. I thought I knew suffering when my husband was arrested for child molesting... when I was abused by my second husband... when I lost my child in miscarriage, my job, and my marriage in the same year.

Then I got cancer. Through Christ who gives me strength, I unite my sufferings to his on the cross for the good of the Church and His people. Truly, when I feel in pain of body and spirit and give it up to Him, my sufferings ease and my pain lessens or goes away. How can I not suffer for Him, when He came down from Heaven to give His all for me?

I pray for healing from cancer, but in all things and above all I pray "Thy will be done".


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:43 pm 
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God Bless You!

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:28 pm 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
Yes, it is suffering. It is something difficult that you have to deal with, by making sacrifices and practicing discipline.


Does that include chronic pain?

What sacrifices should you make for that? What discipline?

Fascinating thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:54 pm 
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Sailor Kenshin wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Yes, it is suffering. It is something difficult that you have to deal with, by making sacrifices and practicing discipline.


Does that include chronic pain?

What sacrifices should you make for that? What discipline?

Fascinating thread.


I believe it does; sometimes the sacrifice is not seeking pity or being a pain to others, or even the sacrifice of setting aside pride and accepting the help others offer; sometimes the discipline is getting outside the self, and entering the suffering of the other; if that makes sense; it's a discipline because it is an act of the will, engaged for charity.

Elisabeth Leseur's book is a good companion on this topic: posted in Books forum here

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"You seek me", St. Augustine comments, "for the flesh, not for the spirit. How many seek Jesus for no other purpose than that He may do them good in this present life! [...] Scarcely ever is Jesus sought for Jesus' sake" (In Ioann. Evang, 25, 10).

“therefore is my people led away captive, because they have not knowledge … therefore hath hell enlarged her mouth without any bounds” (Is 5:13-14).

But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Mt 24:13)


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:03 pm 
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Sailor Kenshin wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Yes, it is suffering. It is something difficult that you have to deal with, by making sacrifices and practicing discipline.


Does that include chronic pain?

What sacrifices should you make for that? What discipline?

Fascinating thread.


Yes it is includes any kind of pain, sorrow, or suffering.

The sacrifice you can make here is the offering of your chronic pain with the sufferings of Our Lord. You could, if you chose to, offer it for something specific such as the souls in purgatory. You can also make the sacrifice of your will in this suffering to Our Lord.

As for discipline, St. Francis de Sales offers some great advice here.

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Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:15 pm 
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I still struggle with the concept of suffering. I understand exactly what Booklover's daughter is going through because I have walked in her shoes (almost to the letter), only it all happened to me as an adult.

I just don't understand how am I supposed to enjoy suffering. I am constantly being told, "Offer it up to God and you will see the blessing in it." I really don't know how to do that, and even then I don't see how I should be glad about suffering. Sometimes I feel like I am paying for sins I haven't even committed yet.

I have been told all of my life that when one suffers, one is actually experiencing Christ's passion. While I am eternally grateful that Jesus died for our sins, I just don't understand how experiencing that is a good thing. Also, I don't understand why is it that some of us are chosen to suffer and to be a teaching tool for others and yet these people are going to get the same reward as we are in the end: eternity in Heaven. I can't help but feel cheated because it feels like we are allowed to suffer on Earth for nothing.

Plus, these teachings on suffering are confusing for another reason. If suffering is a blessing, is it a good idea to ask God not to give us a blessing? Because in the Garden of Gethsemene, Jesus asked God "if you are willing, let this cup pass from me. Nevertheless, let thy will be done." If suffering is a blessing, then why would he ask that? Wouldn't he realize God was trying to bless him? I think he'd know, if anyone would.

I don't mean to be flippant, but I have to ask this question: What about how Jesus suffered? He didn't seem to thrilled about it and He KNEW why he was suffering! Is it being suggested that if only Jesus had remember to "remain calm, serene and patient," he wouldn't have sweat blood on Gethsemane? Even Jesus questioned God on the cross: “At three o’clock, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?’ which is translated, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” (Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46). So if the Son of Man felt this way about suffering, is it being suggested that we should "do better" than Jesus?!?!

Whenever I ask these questions, the response I always get is "Well, Jesus' sufferings were worse than yours so quit whining because you are showing you have no faith." I personally don't believe that Jesus would respond that way--dodge questions by minimizing someone--and it doesn't answer my questions.


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:50 pm 
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Sheri78 wrote:
I still struggle with the concept of suffering.
Dear sister in Christ,

Suffering is a struggle, and to struggle with the concept; well, remember Jesus struggled too, as did St. Paul.

Quote:
I just don't understand how am I supposed to enjoy suffering.


You are not supposed to enjoy suffering, then it wouldn't be suffering at all. That is not the point.

Consider for a moment the suffering you do consent to, and undergo freely (and we all do), from something as simple as a shot in the arm (physical suffering) at the doctor office, to the stress of moving and starting a new job, or submitting to the degradation of a college education (moral suffering)!

Now there are other sufferings which will come upon us, which we do not choose. Yet, we do not live in a world which is randomly spinning out of control, God is still the master and governor of the universe, nothing happens without His permission. And He has permitted all we suffer, and there is a greater good which He will draw from it.

The quite normal question is "why me?" and the reasonable answer is, "why not?" This may seem flippant, but consider the greatest good of all, which God the Father has drawn out of the suffering of His innocent Son for our redemption. He was innocent, and no other person will ever suffer as much. He embraced it, not because He wanted to or enjoyed it; no, He did it because it was His Father's Will and because He loved His Father, and He loved you, and it was for you that it needed to be done, as it was for each and every one of us.

You may say that was enough, it's done, no more is necessary. That flies in the face of 1) what we see, and 2) what the Holy Scriptures say; for Paul says "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church" (Col 1:24).

Jesus did it for you, and Paul has done so as well, and Christians until the end of time will struggle with how to follow in His Way; to look at Him on the cross, and change our "I don't want this, You carry it" into "yes, I offer this with you." We may stand with the good thief, who accepts his just punishment alongside Christ on His cross, or with Mary Magdalene, at the foot of the cross, and bear His suffering along with Him. Most of His own run away as they did that day on Golgatha, and He is very patient and forgiving; all that ran that day, later stood and took theirs in turn.

I find this to be the hardest part of the Christian faith to penetrate and live out. He will assist your understanding if you continue to knock, an focus on the crucified Christ.

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"You seek me", St. Augustine comments, "for the flesh, not for the spirit. How many seek Jesus for no other purpose than that He may do them good in this present life! [...] Scarcely ever is Jesus sought for Jesus' sake" (In Ioann. Evang, 25, 10).

“therefore is my people led away captive, because they have not knowledge … therefore hath hell enlarged her mouth without any bounds” (Is 5:13-14).

But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Mt 24:13)


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:26 pm 
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Some thoughts for sheri78 :

We all suffer, one way or another. Buddha apparently said, Life is suffering. It's unavoidable - we all get it on this earth.

OK, we accept suffering, but what religion shows us this 'truth' - that life is suffering? What symbol says it for us?

Buddha is portrayed in serene poses. I like to look at Buddha images, they're peaceful; When you're going through suffering they can give you peace sometimes. I don't deny their power to help you. They're lovely and indeed beautiful images that can lift you.

But then you see Jesus....

How is Jesus portrayed? He's in agony, his body is nailed onto wood, he's ugly. But in some ways he relates more closely to what you're going through.

So in some ways, when I doubt Christianity sometimes I think, well, I'm going through torture here, and at least ONE religion has someone going through it too!


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:51 am 
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Bonaventure wrote:
MySavingGrace wrote:
^^^^ I feel it is suffering. People who can eat whatever and not exercise and be thin (not scary thin but thin) have no idea how hard it is for those who don't. Some eat more in a meal than I can in a day and don't exercise etc. I feel it is suffering. I've had anorexia and bulimia and it is suffering and what it does to your body and metabolism makes you suffer.


While there is nothing wrong with keeping your body fit and/or losing weight, if this concern is making you sick (with anorexia or bulimia) than I think it may be time to re-evaluate your priorities. Also if it is causing you to be jealous of others who are thin, then it could be problem as well. Your value in the eyes of God is not dependent on your weight.

As I said, there is nothing wrong with keeping your body fit, but if it is causing you to suffer, then I think you may be approaching it the wrong way. We cannot live in constant fear of what others are thinking of us. We must look only to if God is pleased with us.


OT: Those who are deliberate hurting themselves is a sin from God... God doesn't command us to hurt or to suffer physical difficulties to make him happy he just want us to obey his will

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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:10 am 
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I'm not sure how you interpreted my post there as saying that God commands us to hurt, Ridler. I certainly agree with you that suffering is not a good in itself, but our conformity to the Will of God in suffering is what Our Lord wants.

I would add to your comment by saying that while it is matter for sin for a person to hurt themselves, it is possible for the guilt for those actions to be diminished by mental health problems. I'm not saying you disagree....I just wanted to clarify for anyone reading this thread.

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Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:43 pm 
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"We shall have to work out our future happiness somehow by suffering; pay for it somehow by fresh miseries. Everything is purified by suffering.

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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:34 am 
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Sheri78 wrote:
I am constantly being told, "Offer it up to God and you will see the blessing in it." I really don't know how to do that, and even then I don't see how I should be glad about suffering.

Offering it up is really just a decision and a state of mind. It's saying, "Lord, I offer this suffering as atonement for my sins" (or for the souls in Purgatory, or whatever), and then accepting the cost (suffering), believing that God will bring good from it. I'm sure you've noticed a difference between those who accept pain or struggles (sometimes it's very difficult to tell they are even suffering at all), and those who make it clear to everyone that they are suffering ("Oh, woe is me! Can't you see how terrible my life is because of this?"). We're shooting for being the former. :wink:

Sheri78 wrote:
I have been told all of my life that when one suffers, one is actually experiencing Christ's passion. While I am eternally grateful that Jesus died for our sins, I just don't understand how experiencing that is a good thing.


Often, in order to relate to someone else, we need some common ground. When we can empathize, we can know and understand them a little bit better. We see where they're coming from. We can start to understand what they are going through or have gone through. I'm sure you've met someone who just doesn't "get" what you've gone through--you feel they can't relate because they have not experienced anything like your situation. And I'm sure you've met others with whom you almost immediately relate because you've both been through similar situations.

Jesus wants us to have a close relationship with Him, so we limited human beings need some common ground with Him. He also wants us to understand how much He loves us--so much that He made the ultimate sacrifice for us. In order to really begin to understand that, to really "get" what He did for us, we need to know what it is to suffer. Without that experience... well, His suffering wouldn't hold much meaning for us. We couldn't relate.

I'm sure there is more to it, but that's my simple-minded take on it. :)

Sheri78 wrote:
Also, I don't understand why is it that some of us are chosen to suffer and to be a teaching tool for others and yet these people are going to get the same reward as we are in the end: eternity in Heaven. I can't help but feel cheated because it feels like we are allowed to suffer on Earth for nothing.


This is something I struggle with, as well: this feeling of unequal burdens... so I will leave this for others better able than I to answer. I can say, though, that we don't necessarily know by outward appearances how much someone else is suffering, has suffered, or will suffer--all we see are snapshots of each others' lives. Is our suffering equal in the end? I honestly don't know. But I do know that God knows what is best for each of us.

Sheri78 wrote:
...in the Garden of Gethsemene, Jesus asked God "if you are willing, let this cup pass from me. Nevertheless, let thy will be done." If suffering is a blessing, then why would he ask that? Wouldn't he realize God was trying to bless him? I think he'd know, if anyone would.


Using an example that mgross mentioned, I don't get a shot at the doctor's office because it's enjoyable; I endure and accept the pain as the cost for a greater good: to protect me from serious illness. I feel "blessed," not to get stuck in the arm with a needle, but to be able to endure the price to receive the benefit. Does that make sense? Of course, this is not the only reason that God allows suffering, so it won't fit all situations, but it's one way to look at some types of suffering.

Sheri78 wrote:
I don't mean to be flippant, but I have to ask this question: What about how Jesus suffered? He didn't seem to thrilled about it and He KNEW why he was suffering! Is it being suggested that if only Jesus had remember to "remain calm, serene and patient," he wouldn't have sweat blood on Gethsemane? Even Jesus questioned God on the cross: “At three o’clock, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?’ which is translated, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” (Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46). So if the Son of Man felt this way about suffering, is it being suggested that we should "do better" than Jesus?!?!


Again, I don't think there is a "one size fits all" kind of response to suffering, so I don't think that's being suggested. To continue the medical example, I'd avoid the pain of getting a shot if there was another way... but if not, I'll accept the needle in the arm.*

Sheri78 wrote:
Whenever I ask these questions, the response I always get is "Well, Jesus' sufferings were worse than yours so quit whining because you are showing you have no faith." I personally don't believe that Jesus would respond that way--dodge questions by minimizing someone--and it doesn't answer my questions.


I'm sorry that has been your experience. I hope that something I (and/or others) have said helps, although I don't have all the answers for you. I wish I did! In any case, I hope that God will guide you to the answers you seek. :pray:

God bless,
--Amy

*Just to clarify, I am not in any way suggesting that a shot is even remotely close to the kind of suffering that Jesus endured for us!


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:34 pm 
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Amy, you have answered well, and left open room for more, so I'll jump in too. The thing about suffering that continues to amaze me, is that it is so central, yet so not understood; a think to be understood when we see God face to face, and all our suffering is over; I trust then that it will be clear, and we will understand. For now, it's a struggle we "suffer" through.


Sheri78 wrote:
...in the Garden of Gethsemene, Jesus asked God "if you are willing, let this cup pass from me. Nevertheless, let thy will be done." If suffering is a blessing, then why would he ask that? Wouldn't he realize God was trying to bless him? I think he'd know, if anyone would.


Take this to the next logical step. Jesus knows what God is doing because Jesus is God. The sacrifice of the cross was how God chose to reconcile man to a relationship with God. Not as a mere creature, not as a servant, not even as a friend, but as a beloved child of God. Only God could restore this, and it is true that He could have done this by simply willing it, He did something so extravagent that even the hardest hearts would melt in the face of His love for you; He was willing to die for you, in the most abject and humble and horrid way.

Now, I know that as a parent I feel strongly that I would die to save my children, but I would not look forward to it. God took our nature, in order that we could be united to him; and here is what I think is a key to understanding this; Jesus said "I AM THE WAY." If he is the way, he must show us the way. On the cross, he shows us the consumation of a love that gives all to the beloved; God gives us His son; too many turn away. But He has shown us the way because he has gone their first; he has said "pick up your daily cross and follow me." It's no fun, granted, but how much have we all done that wasn't fun, in order to get something we want? Well, as CS Lewis put it, our greed is not enlightened enough; we will suffer for many things with no eternal value, if we turn our hearts and minds towards Christ and eternity, then the suffering has merit, because we accept it, not as what we want, but as what we have received. And we recieve absolutely nothing which God has not permitted. In accepting it, we turn it from something with no benefit to anyone, into something beneficial for eternity.

This is not easy stuff, but God bless you for turning your mind to it.

Sheri78 wrote:
I don't mean to be flippant, but I have to ask this question: What about how Jesus suffered? He didn't seem to thrilled about it and He KNEW why he was suffering! Is it being suggested that if only Jesus had remember to "remain calm, serene and patient," he wouldn't have sweat blood on Gethsemane? Even Jesus questioned God on the cross: “At three o’clock, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?’ which is translated, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” (Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46). So if the Son of Man felt this way about suffering, is it being suggested that we should "do better" than Jesus?!?!


There are a couple things here. Remember that Jesus is no ordinary man; he is the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, who has taken our human nature, and shown us the fullness of "man". Now I think we all know that we only use a tiny fraction of our brain, so perhaps this is not so difficult to imagine. But consider: Jesus died for each of us, he suffered for each of us, he loved each of us on the cross.

You cannot love someone you do not know in the abstract; you must know them, to love them; it's personal. Jesus, as he prayed in the garden, had before him, as man, the lives of every person whose sins he was taking to the cross. The blood of the martyrs, which would flow so copiously from then to the end of time, is prefigured in his sweat of blood. At that time, he knew you and me better than we know ourselves, for God's knowlege of us is perfect, even as ours is imperfect (Were God to grant us this knowledge now, I don't think we'd merely sweat blood, but die; is not the suffering of those we love, an anguish that at times is hardly bearable?).

No one is suggesting that we do better in our suffering than Jesus did; he showed us the Way. Much ink has been spilled about when Jesus cried out ‘Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani’ from the cross. This is difficult material, and there are many ways that have been proposed to consider it's meaning. However, think about this; if you were somewhere, say at the scene of a grisly car accident, with people dying all around you, and all of a sudden a loud voice called out "OUR FATHER, WHO ART IN HEAVEN" would you not continue with "hallowed by thy name, thy kingdom come... etc?" Well, at the time Jesus cried out, his hearers would have continued the well known prayer, psalm 22; "Why so far from my call for help, from my cries of anguish?" - and we would have been shocked to see the prophetic words of David fulfilled before our very eyes! The thing is, sin separates us from God, and God took our sins to the cross, and that suffering he endured, was for the separation we inflicted, for in reality we are Christ's mystical body.

Sheri78 wrote:
Whenever I ask these questions, the response I always get is "Well, Jesus' sufferings were worse than yours so quit whining because you are showing you have no faith." I personally don't believe that Jesus would respond that way--dodge questions by minimizing someone--and it doesn't answer my questions.


Scott Hahn on one of his recorded lectures, says that this is the standard type of answer given by someone who doesn't know the answer. What a blessing that you are looking. You may have to keep knocking, but He has said that He will open the door of understanding; it takes time, I know, it's a feature of the journey on the way.

In the heat of World War II, when the world was ripping itself apart, inflicting suffering in ways never before dreamed, Pope Pius XII offered the salve of Truth as solace to the world with his Encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi, here and like places you will find answers you can depend on, without the belittling snipes you have experienced in other places.

God bless,
Mark

_________________
"You seek me", St. Augustine comments, "for the flesh, not for the spirit. How many seek Jesus for no other purpose than that He may do them good in this present life! [...] Scarcely ever is Jesus sought for Jesus' sake" (In Ioann. Evang, 25, 10).

“therefore is my people led away captive, because they have not knowledge … therefore hath hell enlarged her mouth without any bounds” (Is 5:13-14).

But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Mt 24:13)


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:01 am 
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Middle Management
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Just a fyi, but Sheri hasn't logged in since September, so she may not be seeing these replies.

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Whence are we to find words enough fully to tell the happiness of that marriage which the Church cements, and the Eucharistic oblation confirms, and the benediction signs and seals; which angels carry back the news of to heaven, which the Father holds as ratified? -Tertullian

Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:04 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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Thanks for the heads-up, ZBonaventure. I hope she sees them, but if not, that's okay; hopefully it will help someone else who might have some of the same questions. I know a few other older threads have helped me recently. :)

God bless,
--Amy

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God bless,
--Amy


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