Login Register

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 33 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:28 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:23 am
Posts: 3427
Religion: Catholic
I know we've talked about this before like 2 years ago. I forgot what was said...

I find Saint Malachy's prophecies to be interesting.

However, I don't know if we Catholics can give them any credence at all...

Can we, to some extent?

_________________
"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:33 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 11:30 am
Posts: 69252
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
No...they are forged...they were forged, we don't know by whom, but the forgery was done in or around 1590 for the purpose of influencing the conclave of that year...they deserve absolutely nothing except to be forgotten...which hopefully they will be after this conclave...

_________________
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and they deserve to get it good and hard" HL Mencken

Therefore.....let it burn.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:41 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:23 am
Posts: 3427
Religion: Catholic
Doom wrote:
No...they are forged...they were forged, we don't know by whom, but the forgery was done in or around 1590 for the purpose of influencing the conclave of that year...they deserve absolutely nothing except to be forgotten...which hopefully they will be after this conclave...


could you provide evidence of for your claim, in the sense of the forgery?

So i have the ammo I need to prove this to others...

_________________
"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:57 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:23 am
Posts: 3427
Religion: Catholic
Jerome_2 wrote:
I was waiting on this thread coming, I resisted the temptation to make one myself. Never have heard they were a forgery, the last couple have been eerily accurate no matter what your view is about them.

If the next pope elected is Peter Turkson, or the Pope takes the unprecedented name of Peter ll, I'd start to be concerned. The odd's for such a coincidence regarding the last couple of, 'prophecies,' would then be astounding.

Peter Turkson is the favourite I believe with a lot of the bookies.


What I have underlined, I do agree with...

Again, I am a little skeptical, but you are right in regards to the last handful of popes, and a some of the past ones-that the phrases seem too accurate to be a coincidence...

I was thinking maybe Cardinal Bertone, if you exam a little bit about his name and where hes from...

Anyway, Im still open to crticism of the text...

_________________
"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:02 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:23 am
Posts: 3427
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
I resisted the temptation to make one myself.


I figured some were... :)

_________________
"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


Last edited by Dionysius on Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:02 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 11:30 am
Posts: 69252
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
The evidence is absolutely overwhelming....so overwhelming in fact that the question isn't 'how do you prove it?" but 'when do you stop talking?'

The list was 'found' in 1590...but allegedly written more than 400 years earlier....

The list before 1590 is very specific and direct......sometimes even giving the exact name to be elected Pope that year....and after 1590 they get increasingly vague...

Also, the list includes no fewer than 9 anti-popes....turns out whoever wrote the list was a follower of one of the lines of Popes during the Great Western Schism which was later declared to be the wrong one...so his list includes Popes like John XXIII and Felix V

Now...if this was an authentic prophecy from God you would think that God would know who the real Pope was!



Also...I mentioned the vagueness.....as the list goes on the descriptions get more and more vague...in fact they get so vague as to be utterly worthless.....

Pope Benedict XVI is 'the glory of the olive'...

Now...what on Earth is that supposed to mean?

It means nothing....it's a meaningless statement that can be made to mean whatever you want it to mean......because the descriptions are so vague, it will always be possible to find some way to interpret it so that it applies to whoever the Pope elected may be....

As a prediction in advance, they are worthless...no one has ever been able to accurately predict, in advance, who will be elected Pope...they only ever 'make sense' after the fact.

A 'prophecy' which make no sense until after the events have transpired is useless...

There is no consistency in interpretation from one Pope to the next...

Sometimes it is said that the motto applies to the family name, sometimes it is said to refer to his place of birth, sometimes it is said to refer to events that take place within his papacy, sometimes it is said to refer to his coat of arms...again....when you have a uber-vague statement AND complete freedom of mental association to apply that vague phrase to ANYTHING you possibly can. and you only do that after the fact...well....obviously it's going to appear to be a long string of 'accurate predictions'

_________________
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and they deserve to get it good and hard" HL Mencken

Therefore.....let it burn.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:10 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:23 am
Posts: 3427
Religion: Catholic
I'll finish readin the rest of your post Doom,

but I wanted to comment on this:

Quote:
it's a meaningless statement that can be made to mean whatever you want it to mean......because the descriptions are so vague, it will always be possible to find some way to interpret it so that it applies to whoever the Pope elected may be


Believe it or not, before the present pope was elected, I was talking to a relative and reading some comments online about this text, looking at the possibility of what it could mean. We did not guess, "who" would be chosen. But, many others including myself thought the next pope was going to take the name Benedict XVI based on the text. This was before he was elected and chose his name...it was an educated guess. It was not "unreasonable" based on the phrase. I'm not saying this gives any credence, but it just seemed strange to me...

Anyway, I'll keep considering your comments about the whole thing Doom as most likely true (and some self-evident)...

_________________
"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


Last edited by Dionysius on Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:23 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 11:30 am
Posts: 69252
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
The idea that there is a connection between an 'olive' and the Benedictines is myth...there's no truth to it, it's something people made up to interpret the 'prophecy'....

This is the exact same thing that so called 'mediums' do....

'I've got a message for you from a relative...his name starts with m....no....not m...n....no...q...'

'Hey you're right, I once had a 36th cousin 17 times removed named Quint...wow, you're awesome..how did you know that?'

'His message for you is about an item....it starts with b...no...c....no....d'

'Hey, my cousin Quint once had a dog! Wow you're awesome, you're so powerful!'


But of course, the medium hasn't actually told him ANYTHING he just randomly threw stuff out until the gullible idiot paying him filled in the vague clues with his own mental associations....

_________________
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and they deserve to get it good and hard" HL Mencken

Therefore.....let it burn.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:46 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:23 am
Posts: 3427
Religion: Catholic
jerome

why Peter Turkson?

_________________
"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:50 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:34 pm
Posts: 27829
Location: Sine Domum
Religion: Roman Catholic
It is fake. No mention of anything before 1590, not even in the biographies written of him (and there were several, most notably one by St. Bernard). He is reputed to have made prophecies for Ireland. So someone simply took a known prophetic saint and forged a document. Big whoop.

_________________
Ignem veni mittere in terram, et quid volo nisi ut accendatur?.... Quid autem et a vobis ipsis non judicatis quod justum est?

My Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:58 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 11:30 am
Posts: 69252
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Jerome_2 wrote:
Are you saying that there was no connection between the olive and the Benedictine order before Cardinal Ratzinger assumed the named Benedict?


I'm saying that there is no association PERIOD it's something that somebody made up.....and I remember very specifically that in 2005 everyone said that the 'prophecy' meant that the new Pope would be a member of the Benedictine order....

And you still aren't accounting for the very real possibility that any apparent 'fulfillment' might well be done intentionally for the purpose of being seen as fulfilling it. That they all sat around in the conclave and said 'okay, we need to make it look this thing was fulfilled, how will we do it?'

A popular legend about the 1958 conclave is that Cardinal Francis Spellman of New York 'campaigned' for Pope by renting a boat and going up and down the Tiber because the prophecy calls the Pope 'pastor and sailor'.

_________________
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and they deserve to get it good and hard" HL Mencken

Therefore.....let it burn.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:30 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 11:30 am
Posts: 69252
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Jerome_2 wrote:
Doom wrote:
And you still aren't accounting for the very real possibility that any apparent 'fulfillment' might well be done intentionally for the purpose of being seen as fulfilling it.


So the Catholic Church is one big huge troll?



I'm saying that ANY argument you can possibly make to 'prove' that the supposed 'prophecy' is a big huge heaping steaming pile of crap.

If you can't use the prophecy to tell you in advance who the Pope is going to be before he is elected, and if the prophecy can only be understood in retrospect, after the event has already happened, and even then only by making bizarre, strained, labored connections to things that no one would think to connect unless they were desperate to prove a prophecy, then the so called 'prophecy' is useless.

Look at the prophecy of the OT, it is very clear and direct....the prophets of the OT accurately predict the outcome of events which will happen hundreds of years after their deaths, even to the point of NAMING the specific individuals who will be involved. The OT prophets predicted the Babylonian captivity and the return to Israel under Cyrus, indeed, they even name 'Cyrus' as the king who will allow them to return. All this a good 100-200 years before the events occurred.

The OT prophecies are so clear and direct in fact that historians, desperate to discredit the notion that predictive prophecy is possible, have taken to back dating the OT and claiming that is was written hundreds of years after the events it predicts took place. There's no real reason to make that assumption, textually.....they just make it because they refuse to believe that someone could make such accurate dead on predictions so they assume they must be faked.

That's what REAL predictive prophecy is like....

These so called Prophecies of the Popes are nothing like that....the so called 'predictions' are so vague that they can be twisted to mean absolutely anything.....just like the writing of Nostradamus in fact...or the 'predictions' of a modern 'psychic'. like Jean Dixon.

I note you haven't explained yet why the 'predictions' are wrong in that it supports the wrong line of Popes during the Great Western Schism....how do you explain that?

_________________
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and they deserve to get it good and hard" HL Mencken

Therefore.....let it burn.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:51 pm 
Offline
Master
Master

Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:33 am
Posts: 2638
Religion: Catholic
The "prophecies" might well be dubious - I still haven't made up my mind, but am 95% in the "its not real" camp. However, I assure you this - if the next Pope takes the name of "Peter", I have no problem swallowing my pride and reversing course very quickly!

That being said, St. Bosco's dream just might be spot on with the next Pope as well as the little known prophecy of the "Good Shepherd" (I can't recall the Saint who made it).

_________________
"So mercifully blessed to be free from the ravages of intelligence." - Taken from Time Bandits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:32 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:53 pm
Posts: 407
Location: Archdiocese of Dubuque
Religion: Catholic
SemperFidelis wrote:
I'll finish readin the rest of your post Doom,

but I wanted to comment on this:

Quote:
it's a meaningless statement that can be made to mean whatever you want it to mean......because the descriptions are so vague, it will always be possible to find some way to interpret it so that it applies to whoever the Pope elected may be


Believe it or not, before the present pope was elected, I was talking to a relative and reading some comments online about this text, looking at the possibility of what it could mean. We did not guess, "who" would be chosen. But, many others including myself thought the next pope was going to take the name Benedict XVI based on the text. This was before he was elected and chose his name...it was an educated guess. It was not "unreasonable" based on the phrase. I'm not saying this gives any credence, but it just seemed strange to me...

Anyway, I'll keep considering your comments about the whole thing Doom as most likely true (and some self-evident)...




I found myself intrigued, like you, but I always remind myself that when someone claims to "know" when the world ends.........it will NOT end then. These prophecies remind me of the bible "code" or nostradamus "prophecies", odds are that there will be a "hit" every once in awhile. If the next Pope takes/has the name Peter, then it is GOD's will, and if it IS the end,so be it.....if not.....so be it.........Let it be and put off all anxious imaginings. Now that being said.....I have to admit it is interesting to speculate.. :)

_________________
Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.

Amen.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:57 pm 
Offline
Our Lady's Gladiator
Our Lady's Gladiator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:26 am
Posts: 84184
Location: Revelation 11:19-12:1
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree Knight of Columbus
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=149360&p=2469028&hilit=bosco#p2469028 :fyi:

_________________
All Marian devotion begins with Christ,is centered on Christ,and ends with Christ.
As Mary brought Jesus to us,so shall She bring us to Jesus!


De Maria numquam satis

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:03 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:23 am
Posts: 3427
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
He mentioned one other thing that I wasn't aware of, the portraits of the Popes in St. Paul's outside the walls. He stated that there are portraits of all the popes in there, and there is only a place left for one more pope after Benedict the XVl. Presumably this is what he is talking about, the Mosiac of Benedict the XVl with John Paul ll beside him, and the one free space left to his left as we are looking at it in the picture.


For the fun of it, I looked it up, trying to find some images.

There's actually two places left after Pope BXVI

_________________
"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:48 am 
Offline
Our Lady's Gladiator
Our Lady's Gladiator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:26 am
Posts: 84184
Location: Revelation 11:19-12:1
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree Knight of Columbus
here's a link that shows at least 2 spots available

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mpobrien/5347111521/

_________________
All Marian devotion begins with Christ,is centered on Christ,and ends with Christ.
As Mary brought Jesus to us,so shall She bring us to Jesus!


De Maria numquam satis

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:03 am 
Offline
Majesty
Majesty
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:59 am
Posts: 9778
Communiqué of the Secretariat of State

The freedom of the College of Cardinals, which is responsible for providing, under the law for the election of the Roman Pontiff, has always been strongly defended by the Holy See, as a guarantee of a choice that was based on evaluations addressed solely for the good of the Church.

Through the course of the centuries, Cardinals have had to face many forms of pressures exerted upon individual electors or on the College of Cardinals. Such pressures had as their goal to condition the decisions, following a political or worldly logic.

If in the past, the so-called powers, i.e., States, exerted pressures on the election of the Pope, today there is an attempt to do this through public opinion that is often based on judgements that do not typically capture the spiritual aspect of the moment that the Church is living.

It is deplorable that as we draw closer to the time of the beginning of the Conclave and the Cardinal electors will be held in conscience and before God, to freely indicate their choice, that there be a widespread distribution of often unverified, unverifiable or completely false news stories, that cause serious damage to persons and institutions.

In these moments more than ever, may Catholics focus on what is essential: praying for Pope Benedict, praying also that the Holy Spirit enlighten the College of Cardinals, praying for the future Pope, confident that the fate of the barque of Peter is in the hands of God.

[00313-02.02][Original text: Italian]

_________________
.قالت امه للخدام مهما قال لكم فافعلوه

His mother said to his servants, "Do whatever he tells you." (John 2:5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:10 am 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:25 pm
Posts: 1797
Location: Missouri
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Endow facilitator
Jerome_2 wrote:
Are you saying that there was no connection between the olive and the Benedictine order before Cardinal Ratzinger assumed the named Benedict?


I don't know whether there's no connection, but I have lived near a Benedictine monastery most of my life, and I have not seen any evidence that the olive is the "symbol" of St. Benedict or the Benedictine order. Benedict's symbol is typically the raven. There are ravens all over the place in the abbey and the guest house (not to mention the school) in paintings and carvings, but olives? None that I can find.

I will say they do have some olive-wood crosses, but olives just don't seem very prominent--I can't even find one on their website. You'd think if the olive was the symbol of the Benedictines, there would be some indication of that in a monastery that's been around since the 1850's. :|

As another example, there is also a Benedictine order of sisters nearby, and in and around their convent and website, I can find no evidence of olives being one of their symbols, either. Sorry.

_________________
God bless,
--Amy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about Saint Malachys prophecies about pope
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:33 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:34 pm
Posts: 11224
Location: With my beloved.
Religion: Catholic
I don't know that I've ever heard much about this before, but I don't see what all the fuss is about.

If it is a forgery (which seems quite likely), then it is easily forgotten.

The thing is, even if it is not a forgery, it is easily forgotten. Why on earth would anyone try to use this list to determine the timing of the apocalypse?

Jesus said we won't know. That works for me. I'm totally down with just listening to Jesus and not acting as if I have some right to knowledge that He specifically said I would not have. I'm not worried about the apocalypse, as it is God's will. I don't care if it happens today or tomorrow or hundreds of years from now, except that I confess that in my heart there is a certain longing for it to come sooner rather than later, which I try to keep in check, because I know my preferences on the timing are irrelevant.

_________________
During His trials Our Lord would not respond to the chief priests (Mt 14:61), or Herod (Lk 23:9) or Pilate (Jn 19:9). Words had failed. All that could penetrate those hardened hearts was the witness of divine love, the offering of His life to the Father. So also for us — when words fail the greatest way to “win” an argument is by acts of love. - Fr. Paul Scalia

There is no law about nougatine. - Chef Stephane Glacier


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 33 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: