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 Post subject: A question about the OF "Lamb of God"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:14 pm 
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I was always taught that the proper response for the Agnus Dei in English should be, "Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin (singular) of the world..." But, now a traditional Catholic told me that sin should be plural. Can anyone tell me which is correct and why? Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: A question about the OF "Lamb of God"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:20 pm 
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Plural is correct (and it's the same in EF and OF). The Latin is "peccata", which is plural.

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 Post subject: Re: A question about the OF "Lamb of God"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:42 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Plural is correct (and it's the same in EF and OF). The Latin is "peccata", which is plural.



Thanks for the clarification! I've been saying the wrong thing all these years! :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: A question about the OF "Lamb of God"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:47 am 
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ChiTownGal wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Plural is correct (and it's the same in EF and OF). The Latin is "peccata", which is plural.



Thanks for the clarification! I've been saying the wrong thing all these years! :oops:


If we all just said the Agnus Dei in Latin, then we would all have been right all these years :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: A question about the OF "Lamb of God"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:07 am 
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Shouldn't it be "you take away" (rather than "who takes")? (or in old English "that takest")

At the Ecce Agnus (Behold the Lamb), He is referred to in the third person, but at the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God), He is address in the first person.


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 Post subject: Re: A question about the OF "Lamb of God"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:56 am 
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Either one is a reasonable translation.

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 Post subject: Re: A question about the OF "Lamb of God"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:19 am 
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AdAltareDei wrote:
Shouldn't it be "you take away" (rather than "who takes")? (or in old English "that takest")

At the Ecce Agnus (Behold the Lamb), He is referred to in the third person, but at the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God), He is address in the first person.


Yeah, I thought it was "You take away"

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 Post subject: Re: A question about the OF "Lamb of God"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:11 am 
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Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi:

Lamb of God, who (relative pronoun, 2nd person singular) takes-away (verb, 2nd person singular) sins of the world...

The problem with translating it "You take away" is that the Latin is a dependent relative clause, not an independent clause; the problem with translating it "who takes away" is that the construction is impersonal in English and sounds like we're talking about the Lamb rather than to Him. The most literal way to do it is to say, "Lamb of God, you who take away the sins of the world," but that's awkward.

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 Post subject: Re: A question about the OF "Lamb of God"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:27 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi:

Lamb of God, who (relative pronoun, 2nd person singular) takes-away (verb, 2nd person singular) sins of the world...

The problem with translating it "You take away" is that the Latin is a dependent relative clause, not an independent clause; the problem with translating it "who takes away" is that the construction is impersonal in English and sounds like we're talking about the Lamb rather than to Him. The most literal way to do it is to say, "Lamb of God, you who take away the sins of the world," but that's awkward.
But when we say "have mercy on us," which is a request directed at a person, little doubt remains that 'who' is personal and short for 'you who.'


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 Post subject: Re: A question about the OF "Lamb of God"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:17 am 
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Fr. OWK is right--it is SECOND person. In English, we call it the "understood you." [YOU] Have mercy on us.

I'd be horrified if it were in the first person. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: A question about the OF "Lamb of God"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:01 pm 
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ghall512 wrote:
Fr. OWK is right--it is SECOND person. In English, we call it the "understood you." [YOU] Have mercy on us.
Yes, my point exactly.

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