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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:24 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:35 am 
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torn wrote:
When you listen to your conscience and hear the voice of God, is it possible that the voice of God would ever tell you to act wrongly?
No. But as I said some time ago, a person can follow his conscience straight to hell.


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:53 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:03 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:43 pm 
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caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
In other words, do you agree that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God?
Yes.


caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
When you listen to your conscience and hear the voice of God, is it possible that the voice of God would ever tell you to act wrongly?
No. But as I said some time ago, a person can follow his conscience straight to hell.


So you agree with me that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God, and that when you listen to that voice of God, it would never mislead you into acting wrongly.

We both also agree that it is possible to be misled by your own misinterpretation or misperception when consulting your conscience, and wrongly believe that you are being guided by a correct conscience when you are not.

That is quite a lot of agreement.

I presume also that you understand that when we talk about the "voice of God" we do not mean an actual voice - like a mentally ill person might hear in his head - but we mean a silent voice in one's heart.

Do you also agree that if a person deeply and sincerely believes that he is being guided by the voice of God in his heart, then he should always act in accordance with that guidance, and never act against it?


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Quote:
not an actual voice - like a mentally ill person


To hear the actual voice of God would make you mentally ill?


Someone tell Moses he's crazy!

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:16 pm 
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Do you also agree that if a person deeply and sincerely believes that he is being guided by the voice of God in his heart, then he should always act in accordance with that guidance, and never act against it?


If that voice speaks against Church teaching, then you are either not hearing correctly, or you are not listening to different voice other than God - more likely your own ego and intellect.

In that case, among others, I do not agree with your statement!

As caleb has said, you can follow your deep and sincere belief all the way to hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:59 am 
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torn wrote:
Do you also agree that if a person deeply and sincerely believes that he is being guided by the voice of God in his heart, then he should always act in accordance with that guidance, and never act against it?
Does a person's sincere, deep belief determine what should be done in a circumstance, or is the gauge by which we judge what should be done in a circumstance something other than the actor's belief? The quotation I posted above from Cardinal Ratzinger's speech contains the answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:55 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:23 pm 
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caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
Do you also agree that if a person deeply and sincerely believes that he is being guided by the voice of God in his heart, then he should always act in accordance with that guidance, and never act against it?
Does a person's sincere, deep belief determine what should be done in a circumstance,

No, not belief in the wrong thing, of course not. That's not the point. We have already agreed that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God, and that when you listen to that voice of God, it would never mislead you into acting wrongly.

Do you agree that you should always act in accordance with the guidance of that voice of God within your heart?

I presume you will say yes.

If so, do you agree that you should always act in accordance with the guidance of that voice of God within your heart when you deeply and sincerely believe that it is the voice of God within your heart that is guiding you?

(If not, how else could you act in accordance with the guidance of the voice of God within your heart, other than when you deeply and sincerely believe that it is the voice of God within your heart that is guiding you?)


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:31 pm 
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Quote:
We have already agreed that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God


key word might be 'possible'

Possibly yes. Possibly no.

How can you categorically state that you should ALWAYS obey a possibility, especially if you are moving against Church teaching.

This sounds like a sure road to hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:40 am 
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Ancient Oracle wrote:
Quote:
We have already agreed that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God


key word might be 'possible'

Possibly yes. Possibly no.

How can you categorically state that you should ALWAYS obey a possibility, especially if you are moving against Church teaching.

This sounds like a sure road to hell.


You always have to obey some possibility.

You are saying you should not always obey what you believe to be the voice of God guiding you within your heart, because you could possibly be wrong. But if you don't obey it, you could possibly be wrong not to obey it. So, according to you, it's damned if you do and damned if you don't.

You seem to believe - possibly deeply and sincerely believe - that the Church is always right about everything and always has been and always will be. Well, you could possibly be wrong about that.

Does that mean, however, that you should not always act according to what you deeply and sincerely believe?


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:46 am 
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torn wrote:
You always have to obey some possibility.
No. Everything isn't subject to doubt or to mere possibility. Things can be known with certainty, and there are absolutes that apply everywhere and at all times.


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:42 pm 
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torn wrote:
You always have to obey some possibility.

You are saying you should not always obey what you believe to be the voice of God guiding you within your heart, because you could possibly be wrong. But if you don't obey it, you could possibly be wrong not to obey it. So, according to you, it's damned if you do and damned if you don't.

You seem to believe - possibly deeply and sincerely believe - that the Church is always right about everything and always has been and always will be. Well, you could possibly be wrong about that.

Does that mean, however, that you should not always act according to what you deeply and sincerely believe?



It is not a question of my deep and sincere belief that the Church is always right. It is sometimes wrong ... but it has the AUTHORITY to make decisions. Jesus gave His Church the power to free and to bind. I have no such authority, and so i defer to its right, and bend my knee - subject to the teachings. Would you challenge Christ's delegation of authority. Will you say' I will not serve.'

Let's take a case where Church leaders were wrong. Obedience is how Padre Pio was able to quietly sit back, and obey even though ecclesiastical authorities suggested that there was nothing of supernatural origin behind his stigmata. The truth always comes out, but while he waited, Padre Pio was in obedience. His quiet trust was rewarded.

If you want to grow spiritually, learn to cast off pride, and bend the knee.

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:57 pm 
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Ancient Oracle wrote:
torn wrote:
You always have to obey some possibility.

You are saying you should not always obey what you believe to be the voice of God guiding you within your heart, because you could possibly be wrong. But if you don't obey it, you could possibly be wrong not to obey it. So, according to you, it's damned if you do and damned if you don't.

You seem to believe - possibly deeply and sincerely believe - that the Church is always right about everything and always has been and always will be. Well, you could possibly be wrong about that.

Does that mean, however, that you should not always act according to what you deeply and sincerely believe?



It is not a question of my deep and sincere belief that the Church is always right. It is sometimes wrong ... but it has the AUTHORITY to make decisions. Jesus gave His Church the power to free and to bind. I have no such authority, and so i defer to its right, and bend my knee - subject to the teachings. Would you challenge Christ's delegation of authority. Will you say' I will not serve.'

Having acknowledged that the Church is "sometimes wrong", if the voice of God within your heart told you to act in a way that is not in accordance with a non-infallible Church teaching, should you defer and bend your knee to the voice of God within your heart, or should you defer and bend your knee to the Church?

Would you act in accordance with the voice of God within your heart, or would you challenge it and refuse to serve it, and act in accordance with the Church teaching instead?


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:59 pm 
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caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
You always have to obey some possibility.
No. Everything isn't subject to doubt or to mere possibility. Things can be known with certainty, and there are absolutes that apply everywhere and at all times.

Tell me some things which can be "known with certainty".





caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
Do you also agree that if a person deeply and sincerely believes that he is being guided by the voice of God in his heart, then he should always act in accordance with that guidance, and never act against it?
Does a person's sincere, deep belief determine what should be done in a circumstance,

No, not belief in the wrong thing, of course not. That's not the point. We have already agreed that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God, and that when you listen to that voice of God, it would never mislead you into acting wrongly.

Do you agree that you should always act in accordance with the guidance of that voice of God within your heart?

I presume you will say yes.

If so, do you agree that you should always act in accordance with the guidance of that voice of God within your heart when you deeply and sincerely believe that it is the voice of God within your heart that is guiding you?

(If not, how else could you act in accordance with the guidance of the voice of God within your heart, other than when you deeply and sincerely believe that it is the voice of God within your heart that is guiding you?)


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:05 pm 
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You're posing a false dilemma. The person must make the judgment that the Church has the authority to command acts of conscience. If a person doesn't accept this fact, then he wouldn't bother to conform his conscience to the Church's teachings and probably wouldn't want to be Catholic. If he accepts the fact that the Church has the authority to command interior acts, then he conforms his conscience to the Church's authority because he accepts the Church's authority.
torn wrote:
Tell me some things which can be "known with certainty".
You seem already to agree with the principles that some things can be known with certainty and that there are absolutes since your arguments rely on these principles.


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:05 pm 
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caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
Tell me some things which can be "known with certainty".
You seem already to agree with the principles that some things can be known with certainty and that there are absolutes since your arguments rely on these principles.

Yes, but you didn't agree with me that we can know what is right and what is wrong by listening to our true conscience. So I want to know what things you believe can be "known with certainty.


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:11 pm 
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You're right. Since conscience is a faculty of judgment, I don't agree with you that conscience is a repository of right and wrong that a person has only to access. The conscience is faculty of judgment that looks at concrete situations in relation to a standard independent of the conscience.

But let's take a simple case and proceed purely on your terms. If a person deeply and sincerely believes when he listens to his conscience that he hears the Voice of God telling him to conform his conscience to the Church's teachings, does he have to conform his conscience to the Church's teachings? Or is this case an exception to all those other cases that you have in mind in which a person must act according to his conscience?


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:31 pm 
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caleb wrote:
You're right. Since conscience is a faculty of judgment, I don't agree with you that conscience is a repository of right and wrong that a person has only to access. The conscience is faculty of judgment that looks at concrete situations in relation to a standard independent of the conscience.

But you agree with me that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God, and that when you listen to that voice of God, it would never mislead you into acting wrongly.



caleb wrote:
But let's take a simple case and proceed purely on your terms. If a person deeply and sincerely believes when he listens to his conscience that he hears the Voice of God telling him to conform his conscience to the Church's teachings, does he have to conform his conscience to the Church's teachings?

Yes, he should always listen to what he truly and sincerely believes the voice of God within his heart is telling him (regardless of what he may have believed in the past).



caleb wrote:
The person must make the judgment that the Church has the authority to command acts of conscience. If a person doesn't accept this fact, then he wouldn't bother to conform his conscience to the Church's teachings and probably wouldn't want to be Catholic. If he accepts the fact that the Church has the authority to command interior acts, then he conforms his conscience to the Church's authority because he accepts the Church's authority.

Would it be morally right or wrong for him to try to manipulate what the voice of God within his heart is trying to tell him?

Would it be morally right or wrong for him to conform his conscience to the Church's authority in regard to a particular (non-infallible) Church teaching if the Church is wrong in regard to that particular teaching?

And finally a slightly different question: Would it be morally right or wrong for him to conform his conscience to the Church's authority in regard to a particular (non-infallible) Church teaching if he truly and sincerely believes that the Church is wrong in regard to that particular teaching and the voice of God within his heart is guiding him correctly?

(It would be helpful if you would actually try to directly answer all my questions, and not just pick and choose which ones you want to answer. I try to directly answer all your questions.)


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