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 Post subject: Father Robert Spitzer
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:48 pm 
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I just finished his book "New Philisophical Proofs for the Existence of God." I am wowed, to say the least. He actually comes as close as anybody I have ever read to proving the existence of God (and all the great things the Catholic Church teaches about Him) using science alone. Not that I believe all that cosmological BS, but scientists do, and Father Spitzer is just amazing at using their own theories and experimental evidence to prove the existence of God. I see Father Spitzer as the sign-post pointing the way for scientists to insist on the existence of God without giving up one iota of their scientivity -- a way out of total naturalism that apparently quite a few scientists are longing to find.

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 Post subject: Re: Father Robert Spitzer
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:10 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYfaOJATh_U

Yep, we are lucky to have the good Father.


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 Post subject: Re: Father Robert Spitzer
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:02 pm 
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I very much doubt he did it using science.

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 Post subject: Re: Father Robert Spitzer
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
I very much doubt he did it using science.


If anyone could do it, Fr. Spitzer is the one. The man is brilliant. Google him and see who he is. You might be surprised.

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Linda

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 Post subject: Re: Father Robert Spitzer
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:30 pm 
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St. Dymphna wrote:
Dominic wrote:
I very much doubt he did it using science.


If anyone could do it, Fr. Spitzer is the one. The man is brilliant. Google him and see who he is. You might be surprised.

Peace,
Linda


I'm not doubting the man's talents, I just think that whatever he was able to prove, it had to do with a metaphysical claim and not scientific evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Father Robert Spitzer
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:33 pm 
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I have heard him explain on TV several years ago:

http://www.ewtn.com/series/2006/fall200 ... ng_god.htm

I now have the book. The title is slightly different: New Proofs for the Existence of God. He used contemporary physics and philosophy.

Perhaps, Zeno, who hates Physics, would reconsider.... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Father Robert Spitzer
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:59 am 
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Dominic wrote:
St. Dymphna wrote:
Dominic wrote:
I very much doubt he did it using science.


If anyone could do it, Fr. Spitzer is the one. The man is brilliant. Google him and see who he is. You might be surprised.

Peace,
Linda


I'm not doubting the man's talents, I just think that whatever he was able to prove, it had to do with a metaphysical claim and not scientific evidence.


Actually, he uses science alone to prove that there must be both a beginniing and a creation.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Father Robert Spitzer
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:24 am 
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pax wrote:
Dominic wrote:
St. Dymphna wrote:
Dominic wrote:
I very much doubt he did it using science.


If anyone could do it, Fr. Spitzer is the one. The man is brilliant. Google him and see who he is. You might be surprised.

Peace,
Linda


I'm not doubting the man's talents, I just think that whatever he was able to prove, it had to do with a metaphysical claim and not scientific evidence.


Actually, he uses science alone to prove that there must be both a beginniing and a creation.


Read the book, simply brilliant.

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 Post subject: Re: Father Robert Spitzer
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:41 am 
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I suppose it depends on what you mean by "science" Taken narrowly, no, science cannot prove the existence of God, insofar as we take science as being something distinguished from natural philosophy. For that matter, God is neither a subject nor an object of natural philosophy either. When God's existence is shown in natural philosophy it is as something outside natural philosophy, but which is a necessary cause of the things natural philosophy studies. Likewise, science can discover things which cannot be explained within its own discipline and therefore lead to a proof of God as a principle of the things science studies.

And once you speak of proving things about God, you are certainly in a different formality than either science (taken strictly) or natural philosophy (which may be called science taken broadly). At that point you are in the formality of metaphysics. Insofar as you make arguments a posteriori, it is true that the argument has a basis in say natural philosophy, but the argument itself is outside that formality.

This is something that, unfortunately, many modern thinkers are not attentive to. It is why an argument based on the Categories alone does not prove there cannot be absolute space (as that is in the formality of logic). We need natural philosophy and metaphysics to do that. It is the error that positivists make, or in general the whole modern project which wants to unify all disciplines under "science" meaning having mathematical certitude and models, etc.

So I think Dominic is right, if we take science, philosophy, etc in strict senses of the words, though it is legitimate to say (at least in principle) that things science holds can go as far as even demanding that God exists, though the argument is at that point in the realm of philosophy.

Though I would hasten to add, and I think pax would have to agree if I understand him right, that these arguments would be provisional, and not demonstrative proofs in the way, say the 5 ways present themselves as being, insofar as they are arguments from theories and hypothesises which themselves are subject to revision. An argument for God based, e.g. on relativity, depnds on that theory of relativity being true. Insofar as, as with most scientific theories, it is provisional, so is the argument from it


ETA: I am not dismissing provisional arguments. A good example is one Aquinas gives in the Summa contra gentiles. He shows that under the cosmology of those who held an eternal world there would have to be a God. This, even though he rejects an eternal world. Basically pointing out that even if they were right, God must be. A fortiori if the world is not eternal

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