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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:11 am 
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Bagheera wrote:
If there can be events of zero duration (i.e., instantaneous events like transsubstantiation), could we not then propose that God can make any event have zero duration if He wished?


Hmmm... I'll think more on it today, but my initial thought is 'no' because some events are necessarily extended. For instance, the ticking of my clock from 8:01 to 8:02, it seems to me, requires extension in time. I'm not sure how to conceive of that event without an extension in time, or without having to redefine the terms involved. But, I'll think more about it today.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:30 am 
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Answering that question is one reason we need a definition for "stuff event." If there is something about at least some events that would make their being of zero length a logical contradiction, then God could not do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:05 am 
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Bagheera wrote:
If there can be events of zero duration (i.e., instantaneous events like transsubstantiation), could we not then propose that God can make any event have zero duration if He wished?



God can do anything if He wishes. To pursue what God could do is pointless as all possibilites are open. The thing to figure out here is what did God actually do.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:08 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Answering that question is one reason we need a definition for "stuff event." If there is something about at least some events that would make their being of zero length a logical contradiction, then God could not do it.


An event like transubstantiation is a miraculous event. FJ actually completing a paper is a miraculous event. Perhaps the distinction between events of zero duration and events with > zero duration is the miraculousness or the naturalness of the event?

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:33 am 
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He can get rid of Zeno.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:40 am 
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Doom wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
He can get rid of Zeno.


It is really difficult to ban an admin


Good point :fyi:

(I told youse guys we needed a mathematician in this thread!)

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:56 pm 
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pax wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Answering that question is one reason we need a definition for "stuff event." If there is something about at least some events that would make their being of zero length a logical contradiction, then God could not do it.


An event like transubstantiation is a miraculous event. FJ actually completing a paper is a miraculous event. Perhaps the distinction between events of zero duration and events with > zero duration is the miraculousness or the naturalness of the event?


Hmmm.... I'm not sure. I think "human to corpse" is another good example. I cannot see a body holding the form of both human and corpse at the same time. It has to be one or the other. And therefore, if it changes from one to another it must be in an instant. Yet, that is no miracle. I think this must be the case for all substantial changes.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:58 am 
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ForumJunkie wrote:
pax wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Answering that question is one reason we need a definition for "stuff event." If there is something about at least some events that would make their being of zero length a logical contradiction, then God could not do it.


An event like transubstantiation is a miraculous event. FJ actually completing a paper is a miraculous event. Perhaps the distinction between events of zero duration and events with > zero duration is the miraculousness or the naturalness of the event?


Hmmm.... I'm not sure. I think "human to corpse" is another good example. I cannot see a body holding the form of both human and corpse at the same time. It has to be one or the other. And therefore, if it changes from one to another it must be in an instant. Yet, that is no miracle. I think this must be the case for all substantial changes.

FJ


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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:24 am 
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pax wrote:
Bagheera wrote:
If there can be events of zero duration (i.e., instantaneous events like transsubstantiation), could we not then propose that God can make any event have zero duration if He wished?



God can do anything if He wishes. To pursue what God could do is pointless as all possibilites are open. The thing to figure out here is what did God actually do.



But God can only do what is logically possible if something is not logically possible God cannot do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:33 am 
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Doom wrote:
But God can only do what is logically possible if something is not logically possible God cannot do it.

Because there is no "it" for Him to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:30 pm 
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ForumJunkie wrote:
pax wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Answering that question is one reason we need a definition for "stuff event." If there is something about at least some events that would make their being of zero length a logical contradiction, then God could not do it.


An event like transubstantiation is a miraculous event. FJ actually completing a paper is a miraculous event. Perhaps the distinction between events of zero duration and events with > zero duration is the miraculousness or the naturalness of the event?


Hmmm.... I'm not sure. I think "human to corpse" is another good example. I cannot see a body holding the form of both human and corpse at the same time. It has to be one or the other. And therefore, if it changes from one to another it must be in an instant. Yet, that is no miracle. I think this must be the case for all substantial changes.

FJ



Ok. Transubstantiation.

There is a moment where there is bread.

Followed by a moment where there is no bread.

Followed by a moment where there is Christ.

Body to corpse.

There is a moment where the body is alive.

Followed by a moment where the body is neither alive nor dead.

Followed by a moment where the body is a corpse.

That is the only way to make it work. There must be the teeniest tiniest interval of time to separate the two events. Otherwise they are touching (so to speak) and both existing together. And in that moment where there is neither one or the other ........ hmmmmm ......... what kind of moment is that?

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:33 pm 
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pax wrote:
ForumJunkie wrote:
pax wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Answering that question is one reason we need a definition for "stuff event." If there is something about at least some events that would make their being of zero length a logical contradiction, then God could not do it.


An event like transubstantiation is a miraculous event. FJ actually completing a paper is a miraculous event. Perhaps the distinction between events of zero duration and events with > zero duration is the miraculousness or the naturalness of the event?


Hmmm.... I'm not sure. I think "human to corpse" is another good example. I cannot see a body holding the form of both human and corpse at the same time. It has to be one or the other. And therefore, if it changes from one to another it must be in an instant. Yet, that is no miracle. I think this must be the case for all substantial changes.

FJ



Ok. Transubstantiation.

There is a moment where there is bread.

Followed by a moment where there is no bread.

Followed by a moment where there is Christ.

Body to corpse.

There is a moment where the body is alive.

Followed by a moment where the body is neither alive nor dead.

Followed by a moment where the body is a corpse.

That is the only way to make it work. There must be the teeniest tiniest interval of time to separate the two events. Otherwise they are touching (so to speak) and both existing together. And in that moment where there is neither one or the other ........ hmmmmm ......... what kind of moment is that?


Since the body continues to exist throughout those moments, then what is it when it is neither alive nor dead. It has to have some form to exist in this reality.

I think you are encountering a problem in your thinking.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:31 pm 
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There is no moment during transubstantiation when there is neither bread nor Christ. At one moment, there is bread. In the next instant, there is Christ.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:41 pm 
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I agree with F/J. If there is a moment when a host is neither bread nor the Body, what is it? It can't be nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:56 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:37 pm 
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ForumJunkie wrote:
pax wrote:
ForumJunkie wrote:
pax wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Answering that question is one reason we need a definition for "stuff event." If there is something about at least some events that would make their being of zero length a logical contradiction, then God could not do it.


An event like transubstantiation is a miraculous event. FJ actually completing a paper is a miraculous event. Perhaps the distinction between events of zero duration and events with > zero duration is the miraculousness or the naturalness of the event?


Hmmm.... I'm not sure. I think "human to corpse" is another good example. I cannot see a body holding the form of both human and corpse at the same time. It has to be one or the other. And therefore, if it changes from one to another it must be in an instant. Yet, that is no miracle. I think this must be the case for all substantial changes.

FJ



Ok. Transubstantiation.

There is a moment where there is bread.

Followed by a moment where there is no bread.

Followed by a moment where there is Christ.

Body to corpse.

There is a moment where the body is alive.

Followed by a moment where the body is neither alive nor dead.

Followed by a moment where the body is a corpse.

That is the only way to make it work. There must be the teeniest tiniest interval of time to separate the two events. Otherwise they are touching (so to speak) and both existing together. And in that moment where there is neither one or the other ........ hmmmmm ......... what kind of moment is that?


Since the body continues to exist throughout those moments, then what is it when it is neither alive nor dead. It has to have some form to exist in this reality.

I think you are encountering a problem in your thinking.

FJ


What are the two events separated by? If it is an infinitesimal point then it is nothing (has no real existence) and there is no separation. I can't think of a better way to say it, but if there is no separation by something bigger than an infinitesimal then the two events "touch" and do in fact exist together. There must be some separation greater than an infinitesimal.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I agree with F/J. If there is a moment when a host is neither bread nor the Body, what is it? It can't be nothing.


I don't know. But neither can there be a moment when the bread and the Body exist together. They must be separated in time by something greater than an infinitesimal span of time.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:55 am 
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pax wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I agree with F/J. If there is a moment when a host is neither bread nor the Body, what is it? It can't be nothing.


I don't know. But neither can there be a moment when the bread and the Body exist together. They must be separated in time by something greater than an infinitesimal span of time.
The change is instantaneous; there is no time at all between when it is bread and when it is the Body. (All substantial changes are instantaneous.)

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:52 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
pax wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I agree with F/J. If there is a moment when a host is neither bread nor the Body, what is it? It can't be nothing.


I don't know. But neither can there be a moment when the bread and the Body exist together. They must be separated in time by something greater than an infinitesimal span of time.
The change is instantaneous; there is no time at all between when it is bread and when it is the Body. (All substantial changes are instantaneous.)


Because there must be some substance present to support the accidents?

Still, if there is no separation of time with a magnitude greater than zero between the events then the events collapse in upon themselves and exist together. That is what I am reading in Father Spitzer's book, and he did write his thesis on the nature of time.

I guess what it boils down to is how we understand time. Is time fluid with one event flowing into the other? Or is time more like an old movie film strip, with each event a frame separated from the other frame?

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 Post subject: Re: Argument from Motion
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:23 am 
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That some events (such as substantial change) are instantaneous does not mean that all events are instantaneous.

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