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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:24 pm 
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St Veronica wrote:
The Church torn, the Church. United in love is all nice, sounds great but we are talking about salvation here not puppies and kittens. Doesn't matter how much you love someone...that is not going to save them from hell.


SV

That seems to be a complete non-sequitur. I don't understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying that you cannot be united in brotherly and sisterly love with people who do not agree with all your beliefs? Why not?


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:30 pm 
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Unity cannot be above Truth. Loving someone is fine, to pretend unity with them when you don't have it is a lie and dangerous to both parties.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:58 pm 
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The sin of heresy destroys the virtue of faith and without faith, you can't have charity. So heretics are not united in love with anyone, not even their fellow heretics.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:32 pm 
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torn wrote:
Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
SemperFidelis, I understand what you are saying. The term for the heresy that is driving you mad is indifferntism. In one way, it may seem like unity, but it does not resemble love at all. It is much more a philosophy of isolationism, in that everyone becomes their own island of belief. Very selfish and self centered. It is the way of the elitist, and it is taught in our school systems, from primary school through university. This is why I advocate for homeschooling so strongly. I lived in the woods with the hippies, and saw their all inclusive love. Not my cup-o-tea!

That "all inclusive love" to which you refer is not what St Paul was referring to, so it's irrelevant.

You make no sense at all in your reply to me.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:14 am 
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Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
torn wrote:
Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
SemperFidelis, I understand what you are saying. The term for the heresy that is driving you mad is indifferntism. In one way, it may seem like unity, but it does not resemble love at all. It is much more a philosophy of isolationism, in that everyone becomes their own island of belief. Very selfish and self centered. It is the way of the elitist, and it is taught in our school systems, from primary school through university. This is why I advocate for homeschooling so strongly. I lived in the woods with the hippies, and saw their all inclusive love. Not my cup-o-tea!

That "all inclusive love" to which you refer is not what St Paul was referring to, so it's irrelevant.

You make no sense at all in your reply to me.


You said "I lived in the woods with the hippies, and saw their all inclusive love". Not my cup-o-tea."

But that's not love in the sense that St Paul talked about love, so why did you mention it? What relevance does it have to anything anyone is discussing in this thread?


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:16 am 
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torn wrote:
Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
torn wrote:
Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
SemperFidelis, I understand what you are saying. The term for the heresy that is driving you mad is indifferntism. In one way, it may seem like unity, but it does not resemble love at all. It is much more a philosophy of isolationism, in that everyone becomes their own island of belief. Very selfish and self centered. It is the way of the elitist, and it is taught in our school systems, from primary school through university. This is why I advocate for homeschooling so strongly. I lived in the woods with the hippies, and saw their all inclusive love. Not my cup-o-tea!

That "all inclusive love" to which you refer is not what St Paul was referring to, so it's irrelevant.

You make no sense at all in your reply to me.


You said "I lived in the woods with the hippies, and saw their all inclusive love". Not my cup-o-tea."

But that's not love in the sense that St Paul talked about love, so why did you mention it? What relevance does it have to anything anyone is discussing in this thread?

It is what the OP was speaking about. It has everything to do with it. Re-read the OP...

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:27 am 
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St Veronica wrote:
Unity cannot be above Truth. Loving someone is fine, to pretend unity with them when you don't have it is a lie and dangerous to both parties.


SV


The force for unity in the Church is not at all about putting unity above truth. That force is recognised as a force from the Holy Spirit and fully eminating from truth itself. As the Decree on Eucumenism states... "In recent times more than ever before, He (the Lord) has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their divisions and to a longing for unity. Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... io_en.html

You have to see that this impulse for unity is something directly related to Gods will for His people. The thing that is more dangerous is defending division and desiring that division. That attitute is one inspired by Satan. He is the author of division and the deceiver of truth.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:29 am 
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St Veronica wrote:
Unity cannot be above Truth. Loving someone is fine, to pretend unity with them when you don't have it is a lie and dangerous to both parties.


SV

You can be united in some things while not in agreement about other things. You can be united in brotherly and sisterly love while (as I said) agreeing to disagree about some things. To take the simplest examples, Roman Catholics can be united in brotherly and sisterly love with Eastern Orthodox Catholics, or Anglicans, for example, while not in total agreement about doctrines and other things.

You can be united in brotherly and sisterly love with anyone who is sincere and believes in following a path based on love. What would stop you if you have that in common?

I am not aware of anyone who is suggesting that you need to "lie" to be united in brotherly and sisterly love.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:29 am 
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As I've already said yes you can love a person and disagree. But loving them does not make you united in Faith. Perhaps you don't understand the OP's thought or direction.


SV

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:54 am 
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ellietrish wrote:

You have to see that this impulse for unity is something directly related to Gods will for His people. The thing that is more dangerous is defending division and desiring that division. That attitute is one inspired by Satan. He is the author of division and the deceiver of truth.


Who here defends division?

It is sort of like the story about the old married couple. They drove to town once each week in the pickup truck. One day the wife said sadly as she looked at him from across that bench seat "we used to drive to town and back and you had your arm around my shoulders the entire trip".

The husband, driving the truck said "I did not move".

The Church did not move. Division is caused by those who decided of their own pride and sin to walk away and create division. That love and unity is waiting for them, they just have to walk back.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:09 am 
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Excellent example K.

SV

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:10 am 
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St Veronica wrote:
Perhaps you don't understand the OP's thought or direction.

No. Do you? It's very vague. I'd like to know who exactly he is talking about.


St Veronica wrote:
As I've already said yes you can love a person and disagree. But loving them does not make you united in Faith.

But you can be united in love.

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And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:17 am 
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He's talking about false ecumenical things.

Yes we can be united in love. Ok and in love we must speak the Truth.

Quoting Corinthians is out of context for the whole discussion. It is loving to speak the Truth.

SV

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:30 am 
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kage_ar wrote:
ellietrish wrote:

You have to see that this impulse for unity is something directly related to Gods will for His people. The thing that is more dangerous is defending division and desiring that division. That attitute is one inspired by Satan. He is the author of division and the deceiver of truth.


Who here defends division?

It is sort of like the story about the old married couple. They drove to town once each week in the pickup truck. One day the wife said sadly as she looked at him from across that bench seat "we used to drive to town and back and you had your arm around my shoulders the entire trip".

The husband, driving the truck said "I did not move".

The Church did not move. Division is caused by those who decided of their own pride and sin to walk away and create division. That love and unity is waiting for them, they just have to walk back.


But the Vatican II attitude in regards to this reconciliation makes a huge step in rejecting that 'them and us' mentality as a starting point. Again from the Decree on Ecumenism...

" Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."

There's that recognition that all men are human and there was pride on both sides that escalated disagreement into division. We aren't entitled to feel that we are the righteous ones simply by virtue of being members of the Catholic Church and they are the disobedient sinners by virtue of being members of the Protestant Church.

"The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."

We can't in good conscience say "we are the Church. We have not moved"... and refuse to accept that we are also human and have the prideful caacity ourselves to resist reconciliation because of a sense of "well I didn't do anything wrong so you have to come crawling back to me on broken glass if you want to come back". That's a more common attitude in marriage that prefers division to admitting to being part of the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:47 am 
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ellietrish wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
ellietrish wrote:

You have to see that this impulse for unity is something directly related to Gods will for His people. The thing that is more dangerous is defending division and desiring that division. That attitute is one inspired by Satan. He is the author of division and the deceiver of truth.


Who here defends division?

It is sort of like the story about the old married couple. They drove to town once each week in the pickup truck. One day the wife said sadly as she looked at him from across that bench seat "we used to drive to town and back and you had your arm around my shoulders the entire trip".

The husband, driving the truck said "I did not move".

The Church did not move. Division is caused by those who decided of their own pride and sin to walk away and create division. That love and unity is waiting for them, they just have to walk back.


But the Vatican II attitude in regards to this reconciliation makes a huge step in rejecting that 'them and us' mentality as a starting point. Again from the Decree on Ecumenism...

" Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."



MEN of both sides. Not the Church. The Church is not to blame because people follow heresies and leave. Some human beings may have been to blame, among other things for not doing more to eradicate the heresy before it took deep roots, but the Church is never to blame. She is blameless.



ellietrish wrote:
There's that recognition that all men are human and there was pride on both sides that escalated disagreement into division. We aren't entitled to feel that we are the righteous ones simply by virtue of being members of the Catholic Church and they are the disobedient sinners by virtue of being members of the Protestant Church.

"The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."

We can't in good conscience say "we are the Church. We have not moved"... and refuse to accept that we are also human and have the prideful caacity ourselves to resist reconciliation because of a sense of "well I didn't do anything wrong so you have to come crawling back to me on broken glass if you want to come back". That's a more common attitude in marriage that prefers division to admitting to being part of the problem.


The Church has not moved. She IS truth.

Children, like me, who were born into a protestant family are not to blame for the original rift. Those children are responsible when they grow up and hear the truth of the Catholic Church to follow that truth.

Sometimes that crawl back is over broken glass, I know mine was, and it was worth every painful step.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:04 am 
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No, the Church hasn't moved and when we say "we are the Church and therefore we haven't moved and therefore are justified in not making any move to reconciliation"... we are misappropriating our authority as flawed men, to act like God.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:15 am 
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St Veronica wrote:
At least jac *might* be able to plead ignorance.

I doubt it. I mean, maybe I'm ignorant of ignorance, but I wonder who couldn't plead ignorance if I can. Granted, I'm no expert on the intricacies of Catholicism, but I would daresay I have a fairly decent grasp on the subject. I've heard the arguments. I've been through them, and I just reject them.

Granted, I reject them because I fail to see how they could be true. But that would be an odd doctrine of ignorance . . . someone studies the Truth long enough that they come to grasp it with exception to a small part that they just can't get past, and that makes them ignorance? It's odd to me that studying can lead to ignorance . . .

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong. I know there's a rather serious debate on this board (and I suspect in the Church more broadly, though I couldn't say) about just who could in principle plead ignorance. But I am just willing to bet that plenty here wouldn't think I'd qualify . . . and for good reason.

Just my (worthless) $.02.

EDIT:

But to the OP, I don't know that it's completely black and white here. There has to be some gray in here somewhere. No two people are in 100% agreement on every point of doctrine. While I agree that love is subservient to Truth (indeed, it is Love precisely because it desires Truth), it is also obvious that Love is not identical to Truth. So there can be some divergence from Truth and there still be unity in love. Take the issue that is not to be discussed on this board (in this forum, anyway). There are people on different sides of the matter and they have made their views very strongly known. Both claim to be Catholic and are accepted as such by the community. Yet both can't be adhering 100% to the Truth here, for they make statements that are in some sense contradictory. But I'm sure we would all agree that both sides of this debate are still united--in love, and in other ways.

Well, that's easy to explain. Both are Catholic. But are we, then, to say that only Catholics can be united in love? Perhaps. That would be a position that one could defend. But it goes to the issue I raised above: how much divergence can love allow and still maintain unity? We can't use love to paper over serious differences. But love can certainly lead us to gloss over those differences that, while important, are not the kind that by their nature threaten necessary division.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:47 pm 
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That's why I said *might* ....I can only hope.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:14 pm 
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Bagheera wrote:
torn wrote:
It's ironic, SV, that both you and jac believe each other to be in error.

Why is that ironic? Whether jac is in error about X says nothing at all about whether he is in error about Y. Same with SV. In fact it is even the same with you. The fact that someone is in error doesn't mean that he is in error about all things.


This is true; however, Saint Augustine says:

"In many things they are with me, in a few things not with me; but in those few things in which they are not with me, the many things in which they are will not profit them." ( Saint Augustine, In Psalmo 54:19, quoted by Pope Leo XIII in Satis Cognitum pg. 368)

In Pope Pius XII encyclical "The Mystical Body of Christ", he points out that to be a member of the Church there are three requirements; that is, one must be baptised, acknowledge the lawful pastors of the Church, and profess the entirety of the Catholic faith.

These authoritative statements clearly points out the necessity of holding on to the entirety of the Catholic Faith.

Jac, (and torn-if you are not Catholic {Im not sure} ) certainly do not reject Catholicism. I certainly can say that you are risking your eternal salvation by rejecting the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church. However, do not downright "reject" it. You must be open to it. Pray about it everyday if you can not see. Im only trying to do my part through charity. Just tell Christ what's going on, and to open up your heart if it is closed. Continue to pray. But you must be open and continue to be open.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:26 pm 
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Quote:
ellietrish wrote:
SemperFidelis wrote:
What are you trying to imply by responding to my question and observations by quoting these verses?


Torn was spot on in his quotes. Unity is not 'the pre-eminent Virtue' as is love. Without the pre-eminent virtue of love there can be no unity. As the opening paragraph of Vatican II's Decree on Ecumenism - UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO INTRODUCTION, states...

The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided.(1) Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.


Pope Pius XI in his encyclical Mortalium Animos says:

"The union of Christians can only be furthered by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are seperated from it, for in the past, they have unhappliy left it."

In Pope Pius XII encyclical Mystici Corporis, we clearly see that the true Church of Christ IS the Catholic Church:

"this true Church of Jesus Christ-which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church."

"There is only one true and holy religion, founded and instituted by Christ, Our Lord. Mother and cultivator of virtue, destroyer of vice, and liberator of souls, guide to true happiness; her name is: Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman." -Pope Pius IX, Allocution to the Consistory, July 18, 1861, Pontifical Teachings: The Church (Solesmes), Vol. 1, No. 230

The "ecumenism of return" to the Catholic Church is the only way Christians can be united.

Ellietrish, unfortunately, to learn the Catholic Faith today, it is sometimes necessary to consult perennial documents from the Church because of the heretical mindset of some higher Churchmen today. For example, if you want to know what the Church has never taught in the past regarding unity, read Cardinal Kaspar, the President for the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. His writings go completely contrary to past Magisterial teachings. He's not the only either. So be careful and continue to learn the Catholic Faith. I say this for your sake out of charity; otherwise, it will be very easy to be led astray from what the Catholic Church has always taught about the nature of the Church and it's unity- given the fact that this false ecumenism is so prevalent today in the Church.

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Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


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