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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Bagheera wrote:
The sin of heresy destroys the virtue of faith and without faith, you can't have charity. So heretics are not united in love with anyone, not even their fellow heretics.


This is a true statement.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:53 pm 
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SemperFidelis wrote:
Ellietrish, unfortunately, to learn the Catholic Faith today, it is sometimes necessary to consult perennial documents from the Church because of the heretical mindset of some higher Churchmen today. For example, if you want to know what the Church has never taught in the past regarding unity, read Cardinal Kaspar, the President for the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. His writings go completely contrary to past Magisterial teachings. He's not the only either. So be careful and continue to learn the Catholic Faith. I say this for your sake out of charity; otherwise, it will be very easy to be led astray from what the Catholic Church has always taught about the nature of the Church and it's unity- given the fact that this false ecumenism is so prevalent today in the Church.


The books that Kasper wrote on Eucharist and Christology seem to have been inspired by the writings of Pope John Paul II and don't seem to be regarded in any way off course. The only criticisms I could really find of Kasper were in connection with SSPX fracture with the Church and their hesitancy to accept the post Vatican II writings especially those official teachings on Ecumenism.

If you can direct me to his writings that are worrisome, I could then have a better grasp of what the issues are.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:30 am 
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SemperFidelis wrote:
Jac, (and torn-if you are not Catholic {Im not sure} ) certainly do not reject Catholicism. I certainly can say that you are risking your eternal salvation by rejecting the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church. However, do not downright "reject" it. You must be open to it. Pray about it everyday if you can not see. Im only trying to do my part through charity. Just tell Christ what's going on, and to open up your heart if it is closed. Continue to pray. But you must be open and continue to be open.

I don't know what you mean by "must" here, especially sense you emphasized it. Are you saying it's a logical "must"? As in, in must be the case that I'm open to it? Are you saying it's a moral "must"? As in, I really ought to be open to it? Are you saying it's a factual "must"? As in, if I am not to reject Catholicism, I simply have to at least be open to it?

Anyway, as I've said elsewhere, I'm not immutably non-Catholic. I don't and haven't rejected it a priori. But to say I'm rather unlikely to become Catholic would be an understatement. I've seen the arguments in favor of the authority of the Church. I don't find them convincing. I think the claim to authority in interpretation is fundamentally flawed and ultimately self-refuting. And above all, the biggest problem is that we have fundamentally different Gospels. I simply cannot get around John 3:16 (etc.). I've seen the Church's take on it, and I think it is just plainly and obviously wrong.

Moreover, to say I'm "open" to Catholicism, while strictly true, isn't helpful to you. I'm also "open" to Islam and "open" to atheism and "open" to just about anything else. I'm not omniscient, so I can't rule out any positions a priori. I have to look at the evidence and draw the best conclusion I can. I admit freely that new evidence (or new to me) could surface that would cause me to change my mind, and that about pretty much anything (within the realm of reasonable possibility, and by "reasonable," I mean consistent with the First Principles).

Beyond that, I'm not sure how to respond to what you've said here, because I'm not sure what you are getting at. I think there is a lot of truth in the Catholic Church. I think, as a whole, you have a better understanding of natural theology and the nature of God (ontologically speaking) than anyone else. Put differently, I think the Church understands naturally theology better than anyone else because they've taken it more seriously than anyone else. I think doing so has helped you develop a proper and correct Christology. I appreciate your church's emphasis on temporal justice and all that entails (since many Protestants are aptly descried by the old cliche--so heavenly minded they're no earthly good). So there are lots of good things in the Church that are true. I think we can have unity on those things. But there are some major chasms beyond that, that I simply do not believe can be bridged.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:05 pm 
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SemperFidelis wrote:
(and torn-if you are not Catholic {Im not sure} )

I'm not sure either. :mrgreen:

Certainly, here in Ireland, where I live, I am a Catholic, a practicing Catholic, no different from most practicing Catholics here, in my experience, but on this messageboard I have been told several times that I am not a Catholic, or that I'm not a good Catholic, or not a proper Catholic, etc, etc, etc.

What they mean is that I am not a narrow-minded Catholic who believes that virtually all non-Catholics, along with liberal Catholics, are on the road to hell. That's not Catholic teaching any longer (if it ever was) and definitely not since Vatican II. I don't believe the Catholic Church has always been right about everything, and there are many Catholics who agree with me. That doesn't mean we cannot be Catholics.

You seem very anxious about my salvation, jac's salvation, and probably the salvation of many of your friends and possibly family. I do not have those anxieties. I have a lot of faith and trust in God's love and mercy.

It's interesting that you used the word 'open'. I am very open. I wish more people on this board were more open to having the faith and trust that I have in God's love and mercy, instead of being so uptight and anxious, which I regard as a mental disorder rather than some sort of super-Catholicism which they seem to think it is. When you trust in God's love, and learn to be guided by God's love, you can relax, and enjoy the life God has given you.

There is no need to worry about other people's salvation, they are God's children, He will look after them, just as He is looking after you. He is our father, more loving than any father. When you realise that, you can see God working not just in your own life, but in other people's lives too, whether they are Catholic or not. You can see God's love in other people, whether they are Catholic or not.

Everyone has their own path to follow. What may seem the right path for you, however true you may believe it to be, may not necessarily be the right path for someone else. We all have different spiritual lessons to learn, and different ways of learning, different ways of developing, so it does no good to try and insist that the path you are on is the "one true" path for everyone.

For example, suppose a drug addict, with no previous religious belief, discovered a religion such as Buddhism or Christianity (non-Catholic) which transformed his life (as sometimes happens), he would be on the right path for him at that particular time, it would be a very positive development in his life. It would therefore be wrong for a dogmatic Catholic to insist that the former drug-addict is still on the "wrong" path, and to be negative about the very thing that has greatly helped him. We have to see the good in things that have good in them, and not be blinded by dogma. That is why I am a big fan of Vatican II.

I'm not blinded by dogma. If that makes some narrow-minded unenlightened Catholics think I'm a lesser Catholic than they are, so be it. That's their problem, not mine. I hope and pray that they will see the light, and relax, and enjoy life, and share the goodness of life with people of all kinds, of all faiths, aware that we are all in the same boat, and understand what it means to love, to love God, to love people, whom God created, to love people without creating barriers which distance and seperate people, without creating the barrier of a "holier-than-thou, "we-are-the-chosen-people" arrogant attitude towards other people, which - however well-intentioned that attitude may seem - is a big turn-off.

God loves other people as much as He loves you. If He is looking after you, trust that He is looking after other people too. He is not some sort of unsympathetic narrow-minded authoritarian ogre, without understanding, eager to punish people at the slightest opportunity, such as for not seeing things exactly the way "super-Catholics" see things. Relax. God loves us all - including jac, and me.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:37 pm 
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torn wrote:
Everyone has their own path to follow. What may seem the right path for you, however true you may believe it to be, may not necessarily be the right path for someone else. We all have different spiritual lessons to learn, and different ways of learning, different ways of developing, so it does no good to try and insist that the path you are on is the "one true" path for everyone.



What did Jesus say about that???


“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.

How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few."

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:06 am 
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Just wanted to add, since torn mentioned me specifically in his defense of universalism, that I for one don't have a problem with everyone's concern for my soul. Look, torn, if the RCC is right, I'm more than likely going to Hell.

But you know what? If the Muslims are right, I'm probably going to Hell. If Lordship Salvationists generally are right, I'm probably going to Hell. If lots of people are right, I'll end up in Hell (or whatever that religion's version of punishment in the afterlife is right). I accept that. It doesn't offend me. I've never understood why it makes people so angry when someone suggests that they could find themselves in Hell if they don't change their ways/beliefs, etc.

You may be a universalist, but that's just one position among many, Torn. It's silly for you to suggest that anybody here should not be concerned for my or anybody else's soul because you believe everyone has to find their own path. If they believed that with you, they 1) would not be Catholic, and 2) would not be concerned. So fine, you aren't concerned about their souls. But for someone bothered by the notion that they're telling you (and me) that you are wrong and that your wrongness can have eternal ramifications, you seem rather content telling they that they are wrong.

In short, get over it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:11 am 
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kage_ar wrote:
torn wrote:
Everyone has their own path to follow. What may seem the right path for you, however true you may believe it to be, may not necessarily be the right path for someone else. We all have different spiritual lessons to learn, and different ways of learning, different ways of developing, so it does no good to try and insist that the path you are on is the "one true" path for everyone.



What did Jesus say about that???


“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.

How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few."

And that's supposed to be the "Good News"! :scratch:

If that's your interpretation, as you imply, you must worry a lot about your family and friends whom you love, especially about those for whom you believe it is too late to change anything.

My faith in God fills me with love and hope, not fear and despair, and I believe that that's the Catholic teaching, which I hear everytime I go to a Catholic funeral, where friends and relatives may be sad but are not in despair. Quite the contrary.

But, according to what you seem to believe, only a "few" will be saved, and therefore only a "few" Catholics will be saved.

There are more than a billion Catholics in the world today, and you believe that only a "few" will be saved.

Even if you believe that only about one in a ten Catholics will be saved, that would still be more than 100,000,000 Catholics saved. A hundred million is not a few, by no-one's definition.

So you must believe that more than 90 per cent of Catholics will not be saved.

Even if you believed that only about one in a hundred Catholics will be saved, that is still ten million people. Ten million is not a few. There were only about half a million Jews in Palestine 2,000 years ago. So how could ten million be "a few"? A few is a very small number. Yet you seem to believe that only a few will be saved, and that more than 99 per cent of Catholics will be damned. That makes no sense. Think again.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:22 am 
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torn wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
torn wrote:
Everyone has their own path to follow. What may seem the right path for you, however true you may believe it to be, may not necessarily be the right path for someone else. We all have different spiritual lessons to learn, and different ways of learning, different ways of developing, so it does no good to try and insist that the path you are on is the "one true" path for everyone.



What did Jesus say about that???


“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.

How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few."

And that's supposed to be the "Good News"! :scratch:

If that's your interpretation, as you imply, you must worry a lot about your family and friends whom you love, especially about those for whom you believe it is too late to change anything.

My faith in God fills me with love and hope, not fear and despair, and I believe that that's the Catholic teaching, which I hear everytime I go to a Catholic funeral, where friends and relatives may be sad but are not in despair. Quite the contrary.

But, according to what you seem to believe, only a "few" will be saved, and therefore only a "few" Catholics will be saved.

There are more than a billion Catholics in the world today, and you believe that only a "few" will be saved.

Even if you believe that only about one in a ten Catholics will be saved, that would still be more than 100,000,000 Catholics saved. A hundred million is not a few, by no-one's definition.

So you must believe that more than 90 per cent of Catholics will not be saved.

Even if you believed that only about one in a hundred Catholics will be saved, that is still ten million people. Ten million is not a few. There were only about half a million Jews in Palestine 2,000 years ago. So how could ten million be "a few"? A few is a very small number. Yet you seem to believe that only a few will be saved, and that more than 99 per cent of Catholics will be damned. That makes no sense. Think again.


You do realize, these are words that came out of the mouth of Jesus Christ, not something I drempt up last night over a glass of wine.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:33 am 
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He wants it how he wants it, he doesn't care what Jesus (or the Church) said....he's a cultural Catholic period.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:35 am 
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St Veronica wrote:
He wants it how he wants it, he doesn't care what Jesus said.

SV


I will send torn a Catholic Bible, one with some decent study helps, if he will read it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:39 am 
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jac3510 wrote:
If lots of people are right, I'll end up in Hell (or whatever that religion's version of punishment in the afterlife is right). I accept that. It doesn't offend me. I've never understood why it makes people so angry when someone suggests that they could find themselves in Hell if they don't change their ways/beliefs, etc.



It's not a healthy way to evangelise.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:11 am 
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ellietrish wrote:
jac3510 wrote:
If lots of people are right, I'll end up in Hell (or whatever that religion's version of punishment in the afterlife is right). I accept that. It doesn't offend me. I've never understood why it makes people so angry when someone suggests that they could find themselves in Hell if they don't change their ways/beliefs, etc.



It's not a healthy way to evangelise.


Jesus Himself preached about the danger of hell for the unrepentant sinner. He was pretty darned healthy.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:29 am 
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kage_ar wrote:
Jesus Himself preached about the danger of hell for the unrepentant sinner. He was pretty darned healthy.

It should tell you something when even committed Christians think it is unhealthy to warn people about Hell. It should tell you even more when those same Christians get offended when someone asks them to be intellectually honest. Certainly under Catholic doctrine, many Muslims (let's say) will end up in Hell. Yet I don't suspect many Catholics would think the Muslim ought to be offended by that. It's nothing personal. There's nothing any more to get offended about there than there is at the doctor who tells you that you have cancer and without treatment you will die in six months. But by exactly the same token, many of those same Catholics would end up in Hell if Islam turned out to be true. Likewise, the Catholic ought to be intellectually honest enough to admit that there is nothing worth being offended over there.

That to me is the truly unhealthy attitude . . . to be offended just because someone disagrees with you, and more offended if they are concerned enough about you to point out what they see to be the necessary, (or even possible!) harmful consequences of your actions.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:46 am 
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jac3510 wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
Jesus Himself preached about the danger of hell for the unrepentant sinner. He was pretty darned healthy.

It should tell you something when even committed Christians think it is unhealthy to warn people about Hell. It should tell you even more when those same Christians get offended when someone asks them to be intellectually honest. Certainly under Catholic doctrine, many Muslims (let's say) will end up in Hell. Yet I don't suspect many Catholics would think the Muslim ought to be offended by that. It's nothing personal. There's nothing any more to get offended about there than there is at the doctor who tells you that you have cancer and without treatment you will die in six months. But by exactly the same token, many of those same Catholics would end up in Hell if Islam turned out to be true. Likewise, the Catholic ought to be intellectually honest enough to admit that there is nothing worth being offended over there.

That to me is the truly unhealthy attitude . . . to be offended just because someone disagrees with you, and more offended if they are concerned enough about you to point out what they see to be the necessary, (or even possible!) harmful consequences of your actions.


jac, lest you be mistaken ... I do not think it is unhealthy to warn people about Hell. I'm talking of something else. I know there is Hell. The Saints who've been granted a glimpse of Hell have relayed in words and spirit, how completely and utterly unspeakably horrific it is to be cast into Hell. I feel that when you relate your thoughts on Hell, it reflects having a detached attitude that many, many people develop when they've been given that information in the wrong spirit. When people come away with a nonchanlant attitude towards Hell I feel they have shut something out. Perhaps you heard about hell from hypocrits because Jesus spoke specifically to this phenomenon in regards to the Pharisees of the Jewish religion of the time. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are." Matt 23 13-15

Hell is very real and the Saints have been given a glimpse an all of us can know even if it's in some small measure, that experience of separation from God in our sinfulness. Only if we know that horror and great fear through experiencing it ourselves through our own sinfulness, can we relay the truth of Hell to others. Otherwise we could lead them there ourselves.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:04 pm 
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ellietrish wrote:
jac, lest you be mistaken ... I do not think it is unhealthy to warn people about Hell. I'm talking of something else. I know there is Hell. The Saints who've been granted a glimpse of Hell have relayed in words and spirit, how completely and utterly unspeakably horrific it is to be cast into Hell. I feel that when you relate your thoughts on Hell, it reflects having a detached attitude that many, many people develop when they've been given that information in the wrong spirit. When people come away with a nonchanlant attitude towards Hell I feel they have shut something out. Perhaps you heard about hell from hypocrits because Jesus spoke specifically to this phenomenon in regards to the Pharasees of the Jewish religion of the time. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are." Matt 23 13-15

Hell is very real and the Saints have been given a glimpse an all of us can know even if it's in some small measure, that experience of separation from God in our sinfulness. Only if we know that horror and great fear through experiencing it ourselves through our own sinfulness, can we relay the truth of Hell to others. Otherwise we could lead them there ourselves.

Ah, so you just intended a personal attack! Much better.

Well lest you be mistaken, I don't take Hell nonchalantly. On the contrary, I take it very seriously. I'm just pointing out it doesn't make any sense to get offended if someone points out the obvious logical implication that if you are wrong about the Gospel, you are going to suffer horrible consequences.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:11 pm 
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No I honestly didn't mean a personal attack. It just is a fact that the 'fire and brimstone' way of evangelising, drove people into dismissive mode with regards to Hell and that was the opposite of what was intended.

We do have to examine that.

What was wrong with that picture?

The words were the Lords. The passion is for the Lord. What can go wrong in teaching others these basic truths? Well Jesus warned us about that too.

You spoke of Hell as though there's a Muslim Hell. A Christian Hell. A such and such Hell. There's only one Hell. It's not like the way you relate it. You've heard wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:45 pm 
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ellietrish wrote:
No I honestly didn't mean a personal attack. It just is a fact that the 'fire and brimstone' way of evangelising, drove people into dismissive mode with regards to Hell and that was the opposite of what was intended.

We do have to examine that.

What was wrong with that picture?

The words were the Lords. The passion is for the Lord. What can go wrong in teaching others these basic truths? Well Jesus warned us about that too.

You spoke of Hell as though there's a Muslim Hell. A Christian Hell. A such and such Hell. There's only one Hell. It's not like the way you relate it. You've heard wrong.

I don't condone fire and brimstone preaching. Neither do I condone leaving it out. You are reading something into my words that was never there. I also don't believe there are different Hells. there is only one Hell. I'm pointing out the absurdity of people being offended when people point out that they might end up there.

As I said to torn, on your theology, there's a very real chance I'll end up in Hell. That's a terrible place. It's not something to be taken nonchalantly. I don't, but I'm not worried about it, because I think your theology is wrong. I do, however, appreciate and understand your concern for my soul and it doesn't offend me for you to suggest that I could end up there. The question is, when I suggest that on my theology it is you who might end up in Hell, do you have the same attitude towards me that I do you, or are you offended? Quite a few people are deeply offended at it. And that is what I don't understand.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:13 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
torn wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
torn wrote:
Everyone has their own path to follow. What may seem the right path for you, however true you may believe it to be, may not necessarily be the right path for someone else. We all have different spiritual lessons to learn, and different ways of learning, different ways of developing, so it does no good to try and insist that the path you are on is the "one true" path for everyone.



What did Jesus say about that???


“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.

How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few."

And that's supposed to be the "Good News"! :scratch:

If that's your interpretation, as you imply, you must worry a lot about your family and friends whom you love, especially about those for whom you believe it is too late to change anything.

My faith in God fills me with love and hope, not fear and despair, and I believe that that's the Catholic teaching, which I hear everytime I go to a Catholic funeral, where friends and relatives may be sad but are not in despair. Quite the contrary.

But, according to what you seem to believe, only a "few" will be saved, and therefore only a "few" Catholics will be saved.

There are more than a billion Catholics in the world today, and you believe that only a "few" will be saved.

Even if you believe that only about one in a ten Catholics will be saved, that would still be more than 100,000,000 Catholics saved. A hundred million is not a few, by no-one's definition.

So you must believe that more than 90 per cent of Catholics will not be saved.

Even if you believed that only about one in a hundred Catholics will be saved, that is still ten million people. Ten million is not a few. There were only about half a million Jews in Palestine 2,000 years ago. So how could ten million be "a few"? A few is a very small number. Yet you seem to believe that only a few will be saved, and that more than 99 per cent of Catholics will be damned. That makes no sense. Think again.


You do realize, these are words that came out of the mouth of Jesus Christ, not something I drempt up last night over a glass of wine.


You do realise that the words that came out of the mouth of Jesus Christ were Aramaic words. His words were not recorded, they were remembered (how well remembered, we do not know) and written down many years later, and interpreted and translated, into ancient Greek, and then interpreted and translated again, eventually into English, and then interpreted again by you.


Quote:
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.

How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few."

Those words - even if they are an exact translation of the exact words spoken by Jesus Christ - are open to many interpretations. For example, Jesus is speaking in the present tense, it is not a prediction, it is a description of the present. Jesus did not say that only a few will ever find it.

Furthermore, if Jesus meant that only a few will ever be saved, then he contradicted himself, because immediately before that, according to Matthew's gospel, he said:
Quote:
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!


So, if only a few will ever be saved, and yet everyone who asks to be saved will be saved, then that must mean that only a few will ever ask to be saved - which is clearly untrue, as we know that very many people want to be saved and ask to be saved. There are more than two billion Christians in the world today, are you expecting me to believe that only a few out of two billion Christians have asked to be saved? :nooo:



According to the Bible, Jesus also said:
Quote:
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God."

Do you believe that literally too? If so, you must despair for any of your Catholic relatives or friends who are rich - because, if only a few will be saved, and it is so difficult for a rich person to be saved, you can't have much hope for their chances. Why are you not demanding that they give their money to the poor?


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:26 pm 
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St Veronica wrote:
He wants it how he wants it, he doesn't care what Jesus (or the Church) said....he's a cultural Catholic period.

SV



http://www.romancatholicism.org/cormac-apokatastasis.htm

Quote:
Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor Speaks of His Hope for Universal Salvation

The head of the Roman Catholic in England and Wales recently expressed his hope and belief that God will save all people in an interview he gave for the Catholic Herald.

“We’re not bound to believe that anybody’s there (in hell), let’s face it… I cannot think of heaven without thinking of being in communion with all the saints and with all the people I've loved on this earth.”


Catholic Herald, 7 January 2005


In an interview with The Catholic Herald this week, the Cardinal reveals his optimism for mankind as he sets out his vision of both heaven and hell.

Hell, he implies, may even be empty – conforming with Our Lord’s wish to save all souls. And heaven is a place where believers and non- believers may meet.

“We’re not bound to believe that anybody’s there (in hell), let’s face it,” he says. “But certainly in the Scriptures there’s a stark confrontation between heaven and hell.

“But when Jesus talks about hell, it’s also exhorting people to repent, to turn away.

“It is in the context not of ‘you will be damned’, but ‘repent and turn to God’. I believe that hell exists and it is really the absence of God.”


Extract from the interview

Q: Many people in this country, including Christians, are confused about what the Church teaches about life after death. To judge from films and fantasy novels, the people of our time have an intense interest in the afterlife. And yet, if they were to go to a Catholic church, they would be unlikely to hear a homily about heaven, hell and purgatory. Has the Church lost the confidence to proclaim that there will be a final reckoning after death?


A: The four last things death, judgment, heaven – and hell – are realities. They should be preached I do so myself, particularly in November, at the time of the feasts of All Saints and All Souls. If there is any reluctance – and I wouldn't necessarily accept that there is – then I would be sorry about that, because we are bound to believe, and we do believe, not only the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, but in our own resurrection at the last day.

With regard to purgatory, all I can say is that most of us feel that when we die, we are not ready for the beatific vision. And, however God is going to purify us, the Church expresses that through its doctrine on purgatory.

I often tell people to read or listen to The Dream of Gerontius, that wonderful poem of Newman, where, Gerontius is confronted by God as he is dying and wants to be prepared for the Beatific Vision. It's beautifully expressed in words – I don't think I could do it better.


Q: And hell?


A: We're not bound to believe that anybody’s there, let's face it. But certainly in the Scriptures there's a stark confrontation between heaven and hell.

But when Jesus talks about hell, it's also exhorting people to repent, to turn away. It is in the context not of “you will be damned”, but “repent and turn to God”. I believe that hell exists and it is really the absence of God.



Q: What do you think heaven is like?


A: Well, I have not seen nor yet heard what God has prepared for those who love him, as St Paul says. Heaven for me is communio. It’s communion with other people, communion with the infinite beauty and blessedness of God, communion with myself in a new, strange way. And it’s a communion that gives everlasting joy.

I cannot think of heaven without thinking of being in communion with all the saints and with all the people I’ve loved on this earth.



Q: It is sometimes said that there will be a separate heaven for Bavarians because they would not be in a state of eternal happiness if they had to share heaven with the Prussians. Will Catholics and Protestants be together in heaven?



A: I hope they won't be separate. I think that the divisions manifest here on earth will be reconciled in some mysterious way in heaven. I'm not thinking just of Catholics and Protestants, but people of other faiths and people of no faith. We are all children of God.



Q: So we shouldn't be surprised if we were to meet in heaven someone who was a Muslim or an atheist on earth?



A: I hope I will be surprised in heaven... I think I will be.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:31 pm 
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torn wrote:
You do realise that the words that came out of the mouth of Jesus Christ were Aramaic words. His words were not recorded, they were remembered (how well remembered, we do not know) and written down many years later, and interpreted and translated, into ancient Greek, and then interpreted and translated again, eventually into English, and then interpreted again by you.

So now you are challenging the inspiration of Scripture?!?

Quote:
Those words - even if they are an exact translation of the exact words spoken by Jesus Christ - are open to many interpretations. For example, Jesus is speaking in the present tense, it is not a prediction, it is a description of the present. Jesus did not say that only a few will ever find it.

Furthermore, if Jesus meant that only a few will ever be saved, then he contradicted himself, because immediately before that, according to Matthew's gospel, he said:
Quote:
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!


So, if only a few will ever be saved, and yet everyone who asks to be saved will be saved, then that must mean that only a few will ever ask to be saved - which is clearly untrue, as we know that very many people want to be saved and ask to be saved. There are more than two billion Christians in the world today, are you expecting me to believe that only a few out of two billion Christians have asked to be saved? :nooo:

That's not a contradiction. It just means (assuming that He is speaking on the same subject here) that only a few will ask. "Few" is also relative. Assuming ALL Catholics are "real" Catholics (something I imagine everyone here would dispute), Catholics are still a minority compared to the world population, and moreso compared to the total population that has ever lived. In that context, even all Catholics would still only be a "few."

Quote:
Do you believe that literally too? If so, you must despair for any of your Catholic relatives or friends who are rich - because, if only a few will be saved, and it is so difficult for a rich person to be saved, you can't have much hope for their chances. Why are you not demanding that they give their money to the poor?

This is a valid question. For what it is worth, I don't even think the passage is referring to destruction in eternal hell . . . but that's just me. ;)

On the other hand, one could take the traditional view that He is talking about Hell and still not have a contradiction with the previous verses. Jesus obviously isn't making poverty a condition of salvation. He is, at best, making willingess to be in poverty a condition of salvation. Still more likely, He is pointing out that the rich trust their riches more than they trust God, and to do that is the same as to not trust (believe in) God.

_________________
Just one example of what happens when you haven't been taught how to think:

Hen-Zee wrote:
How do you know that the rock is NOT alive?

Some papers I've written


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