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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:17 am 
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torn wrote:
caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
At least now you agree that what I have been saying all along - which up until now you have been appearing to disagree with - is actually a teaching of the Catholic Church - i.e. that the conscience, the true conscience, is the voice of God that we can listen to, and act upon.
No, conscience is not the voice of God, as you are putting it. Conscience is a faculty of judgment that must obey the voice of God.

How do you know what the voice of God is saying? Do you agree that when you listen to your conscience you can hear the voice of God?


Still not responded to

Quote:
You are skeptical about prophecy, and that is good!

However, you will question that someone could hear and deliver God's word as seen in the Charismatic Renewal (and accepted as private revelation) ... but you cling desperately to this notion that the conscience is the clear word of God that we can hear, and act upon.

There is some strange inconstancy in your approach


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:30 am 
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Ancient Oracle wrote:
Still not responded to

Quote:
You are skeptical about prophecy, and that is good!

However, you will question that someone could hear and deliver God's word as seen in the Charismatic Renewal (and accepted as private revelation) ... but you cling desperately to this notion that the conscience is the clear word of God that we can hear, and act upon.

There is some strange inconstancy in your approach


I responded 22 hours ago:
torn wrote:
There is no inconsistency. Here is what I said:
torn wrote:
Ancient Oracle wrote:
torn, do you believe in the Gift of Prophecy in our day?

I don't know waht you mean.

Do you mean any particular prophecy, or are you asking if I believe prophecy is possible in our day?

Possibly. I don't know. But I would be very skeptical about anyone claiming to be able to prophesise.

All I said about prophecy is that "I would be very skeptical about anyone claiming to be able to prophesise". And that is all I am going to say about it in this thread.



And now I have moved on:

caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
At least now you agree that what I have been saying all along - which up until now you have been appearing to disagree with - is actually a teaching of the Catholic Church - i.e. that the conscience, the true conscience, is the voice of God that we can listen to, and act upon.
No, conscience is not the voice of God, as you are putting it. Conscience is a faculty of judgment that must obey the voice of God.

How do you know what the voice of God is saying? Do you agree that when you listen to your conscience you can hear the voice of God?


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:42 am 
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torn wrote:
How do you know what the voice of God is saying? Do you agree that when you listen to your conscience you can hear the voice of God?


to use your phrase, All I said about conscience is that "I would be very skeptical about anyone claiming to be able to prophesise". And that is all I am going to say about it in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Good.

So now I want caleb to answer:

How do you know what the voice of God is saying? Do you agree that when you listen to your conscience you can hear the voice of God?


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:56 pm 
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torn wrote:
How do you know what the voice of God is saying?
As I've said all along, the conscience is a faculty of judgment that considers a situation in relation to the moral law which is an external order implanted in everyone's being. In the essay above, the pope uses the Platonic term anamnesis to emphasis that the operation of the conscience begins with a re-collecting of this order of being.
torn wrote:
Do you agree that when you listen to your conscience you can hear the voice of God?
When the conscience is badly formed or makes an erroneous judgment, the conscience doesn't represent the voice of God. Acting on one's sincere convictions in such cases can reflect a more severe threat to a person's moral well-being than acting contrary to an accurate conscience, even though neither case is good.


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:39 pm 
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caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
How do you know what the voice of God is saying?
As I've said all along, the conscience is a faculty of judgment that considers a situation in relation to the moral law which is an external order implanted in everyone's being. In the essay above, the pope uses the Platonic term anamnesis to emphasis that the operation of the conscience begins with a re-collecting of this order of being.
torn wrote:
Do you agree that when you listen to your conscience you can hear the voice of God?
When the conscience is badly formed or makes an erroneous judgment, the conscience doesn't represent the voice of God. Acting on one's sincere convictions in such cases can reflect a more severe threat to a person's moral well-being than acting contrary to an accurate conscience, even though neither case is good.

But do you agree that when you listen to your conscience you can hear the voice of God? In other words, do you agree that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God?

2nd question: Do you agree that when you listen to your true conscience you will hear the voice of God?


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:56 pm 
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torn wrote:
In other words, do you agree that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God?
Yes.
torn wrote:
Do you agree that when you listen to your true conscience you will hear the voice of God?
As I've said, I disagree with the phrase "true conscience" because your use of that phrase makes the claim that the conscience is itself synonymous with the voice of God and that the conscience isn't involved or isn't the real source of judgment when a person acts contrary to the voice of God. You propose an infallible conscience. Can conscience be aligned with God's commands so that the person acting in accord with his conscience listens to and obeys the voice of God? Yes. Is conscience the infallible voice of God? No.


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:41 pm 
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torn wrote:
Good.

So now I want caleb to answer:

How do you know what the voice of God is saying? Do you agree that when you listen to your conscience you can hear the voice of God?



Which is to say that I am skeptical about your position.

The phrase true conscience - I`m not skeptical about - your use is incorrect.

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:20 pm 
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caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
In other words, do you agree that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God?
Yes.


When you listen to your conscience and hear the voice of God, is it possible that the voice of God would ever tell you to act wrongly?


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:36 pm 
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Does someone in mortal sin, separated from God, have a conscience ..
What do they hear

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:24 am 
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Day six.

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:35 am 
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torn wrote:
When you listen to your conscience and hear the voice of God, is it possible that the voice of God would ever tell you to act wrongly?
No. But as I said some time ago, a person can follow his conscience straight to hell.


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:53 am 
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Day Seven.

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:03 pm 
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Day eight.

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:43 pm 
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caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
In other words, do you agree that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God?
Yes.


caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
When you listen to your conscience and hear the voice of God, is it possible that the voice of God would ever tell you to act wrongly?
No. But as I said some time ago, a person can follow his conscience straight to hell.


So you agree with me that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God, and that when you listen to that voice of God, it would never mislead you into acting wrongly.

We both also agree that it is possible to be misled by your own misinterpretation or misperception when consulting your conscience, and wrongly believe that you are being guided by a correct conscience when you are not.

That is quite a lot of agreement.

I presume also that you understand that when we talk about the "voice of God" we do not mean an actual voice - like a mentally ill person might hear in his head - but we mean a silent voice in one's heart.

Do you also agree that if a person deeply and sincerely believes that he is being guided by the voice of God in his heart, then he should always act in accordance with that guidance, and never act against it?


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Quote:
not an actual voice - like a mentally ill person


To hear the actual voice of God would make you mentally ill?


Someone tell Moses he's crazy!

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:16 pm 
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Quote:
Do you also agree that if a person deeply and sincerely believes that he is being guided by the voice of God in his heart, then he should always act in accordance with that guidance, and never act against it?


If that voice speaks against Church teaching, then you are either not hearing correctly, or you are not listening to different voice other than God - more likely your own ego and intellect.

In that case, among others, I do not agree with your statement!

As caleb has said, you can follow your deep and sincere belief all the way to hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:59 am 
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torn wrote:
Do you also agree that if a person deeply and sincerely believes that he is being guided by the voice of God in his heart, then he should always act in accordance with that guidance, and never act against it?
Does a person's sincere, deep belief determine what should be done in a circumstance, or is the gauge by which we judge what should be done in a circumstance something other than the actor's belief? The quotation I posted above from Cardinal Ratzinger's speech contains the answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:55 am 
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Day nine.

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 Post subject: Re: Should you sometimes act against your conscience?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:23 pm 
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caleb wrote:
torn wrote:
Do you also agree that if a person deeply and sincerely believes that he is being guided by the voice of God in his heart, then he should always act in accordance with that guidance, and never act against it?
Does a person's sincere, deep belief determine what should be done in a circumstance,

No, not belief in the wrong thing, of course not. That's not the point. We have already agreed that when you listen to your conscience it is possible to hear the voice of God, and that when you listen to that voice of God, it would never mislead you into acting wrongly.

Do you agree that you should always act in accordance with the guidance of that voice of God within your heart?

I presume you will say yes.

If so, do you agree that you should always act in accordance with the guidance of that voice of God within your heart when you deeply and sincerely believe that it is the voice of God within your heart that is guiding you?

(If not, how else could you act in accordance with the guidance of the voice of God within your heart, other than when you deeply and sincerely believe that it is the voice of God within your heart that is guiding you?)


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