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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Bagheera wrote:
ellietrish wrote:
Even when priests are publically corrected, the major concern is his disobedience to direction of authorities. Not so much that he is committing a heresy.

Heresy is a worse sin than disobedience.



Maybe, but let's get serious for a second here....either one, unrepented, earns you damnation....

Where on earth do you get that idea from? Seriously. It's not something Jesus ever taught.


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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:16 pm 
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If I may I thought that one was only a heretic when they rejected one or more points of the Deposit of the Faith and then refused correction openly defying the Magisterium? And if so then isn't the Magisterium the only authority that could pronounce such? Or am I wrong?

And if I'm not wrong aren't these people who react to these bloggers-even though they are right in their judgement that what they(these bloggers) are writing IS heretical-aren't they acting beyond their power and ability in labeling these bloggers as heretics? Aren't they going beyond their lay status and authority in proclaiming such?

Would it not be more wise to submit the statements of these bloggers silently to the Bishops and let them handle it since they really are the proper authority?

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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:21 pm 
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ellietrish wrote:

What would he ask you? I don't know. Give me the answer and I’ll comment.


Do you really not know? What are the conditions required to commit mortal sin?

Quote:

Well lets backtrack to the beginning of this sequence of comments and establish full clarity from the get go.

How does what I’ve said not make sense? Why do you find error in that comment?


I explained why it doesn't make sense. You're asking me a question that I've already answered.

You still owe me an explanation regarding the statement that you made about my providing an example of the OP's issue.

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During His trials Our Lord would not respond to the chief priests (Mt 14:61), or Herod (Lk 23:9) or Pilate (Jn 19:9). Words had failed. All that could penetrate those hardened hearts was the witness of divine love, the offering of His life to the Father. So also for us — when words fail the greatest way to “win” an argument is by acts of love. - Fr. Paul Scalia

There is no law about nougatine. - Chef Stephane Glacier


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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:21 pm 
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ellietrish wrote:
Quote:
Regarding heresy, the simple fact is that there are ideas that are heretical. Period. If I hold them, if you hold them, if someone else holds them, it doesn't change whether or not they are heretical. A heresy is a heresy is a heresy, no matter who has what feelings attached to it.


That's not the OP's point. It's about those who extrapolate heretical beliefs from comments that ordinary Catholics make in the course of discussion.
I have frequented discussion boards for almost 10 years now, and I must say that what is described in the article of the OP doesn’t look like anything I have ever read. And I have vistited some pretty nasty boards. The whole article seems like an subtle attack on everyone who is evil enough to utter criticism. I don’t doubt for a second that most (if not all) of the situastions mentioned in the OP article is made up. Or grossly exaggerated.

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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:30 pm 
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torn wrote:
St Veronica wrote:
If only you would set aside pride and listen to the expert.

SV

Experts are so often wrong. Be your own expert.


Says torn the resident Protestant Catholic.


SV

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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:30 pm 
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torn wrote:
Doom wrote:
Bagheera wrote:
ellietrish wrote:
Even when priests are publically corrected, the major concern is his disobedience to direction of authorities. Not so much that he is committing a heresy.

Heresy is a worse sin than disobedience.



Maybe, but let's get serious for a second here....either one, unrepented, earns you damnation....

Where on earth do you get that idea from? Seriously. It's not something Jesus ever taught.


Jesus did not teach that sin leads to hell? That is news to me!

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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:35 pm 
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SV

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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:50 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
torn wrote:
Doom wrote:
Bagheera wrote:
ellietrish wrote:
Even when priests are publically corrected, the major concern is his disobedience to direction of authorities. Not so much that he is committing a heresy.

Heresy is a worse sin than disobedience.



Maybe, but let's get serious for a second here....either one, unrepented, earns you damnation....

Where on earth do you get that idea from? Seriously. It's not something Jesus ever taught.


Jesus did not teach that sin leads to hell? That is news to me!

Where did Jesus teach that "disobedience to direction of authorities" "earns you damnation"?

Where did Jesus teach that "committing a heresy" "earns you damnation"?


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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:53 pm 
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torn wrote:
Where did Jesus teach that "disobedience to direction of authorities" "earns you damnation"?

Where did Jesus teach that "committing a heresy" "earns you damnation"?


Seriously, you do not believe that Jesus taught sin leads to hell?

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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:58 pm 
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Danielle wrote:
ellietrish wrote:

What would he ask you? I don't know. Give me the answer and I’ll comment.


Do you really not know? What are the conditions required to commit mortal sin?



But that seems to support my point. Grievous matter, sufficient reflection, full consent of the will, will constitute mortal sin. These things determined within the confessional with a Priest, is a lot different from lay people on message boards having that authority.


Quote:
Quote:
Well lets backtrack to the beginning of this sequence of comments and establish full clarity from the get go.

How does what I’ve said not make sense? Why do you find error in that comment?


I explained why it doesn't make sense. You're asking me a question that I've already answered.

You still owe me an explanation regarding the statement that you made about my providing an example of the OP's issue.


The OPs issue was with lay people attributing heresy to other people based strictly on comments that don't conform to their wording. I can only assume why you took issue with the comment I made because the only reason you gave was 'it doesn't make sense'. That was more of a statement of your opinion about its merits rather than giving any direction on how it was faulty theologically. If it's your opinion we can simply agree to disagree, but if it's a theological error, you need to direct me to the specific heresy for me to respond. I could only assume it was something about my belief on sin and the state of sinlessness. Unless you specify your theological problem with the statement, I'm not able to properly respond.


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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
ellietrish wrote:
Quote:
Regarding heresy, the simple fact is that there are ideas that are heretical. Period. If I hold them, if you hold them, if someone else holds them, it doesn't change whether or not they are heretical. A heresy is a heresy is a heresy, no matter who has what feelings attached to it.


That's not the OP's point. It's about those who extrapolate heretical beliefs from comments that ordinary Catholics make in the course of discussion.
I have frequented discussion boards for almost 10 years now, and I must say that what is described in the article of the OP doesn’t look like anything I have ever read. And I have vistited some pretty nasty boards. The whole article seems like an subtle attack on everyone who is evil enough to utter criticism. I don’t doubt for a second that most (if not all) of the situastions mentioned in the OP article is made up. Or grossly exaggerated.


I'm pretty sure the author said it was an example of how things often go, yes. But it is a very unpleasant problem which stems from a sort of legalism. It misrepresents discipline and obedience and takes very little account of grace and mercy in its application to discussions. Libralism is so often caricatured to make a point and it's only fair that the comic relief be evenly distributed.


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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:16 pm 
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ellietrish wrote:

But that seems to support my point. Grievous matter, sufficient reflection, full consent of the will, will constitute mortal sin. These things determined within the confessional with a Priest, is a lot different from lay people on message boards having that authority.




Nothing about "reflection" in anything I have been taught. You can commit mortal sin in a split second!

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:22 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
torn wrote:
Where did Jesus teach that "disobedience to direction of authorities" "earns you damnation"?

Where did Jesus teach that "committing a heresy" "earns you damnation"?


Seriously, you do not believe that Jesus taught sin leads to hell?

Jesus certainly never taught that all sin (unrepented) "earns you damnation". Otherwise, instead of being able to love God who is infinitely merciful, we'd all be absolutely terrified all the time in case we died suddenly having sinned without repenting.

So can anyone answer these specific questions:

Question 1a: Where did Jesus teach that "disobedience to direction of authorities" is a sin?

Question 1b: Where did Jesus teach that "committing a heresy" is a sin?

Question 2a: Where did Jesus teach that "disobedience to direction of authorities" "earns you damnation"?

Question 2b: Where did Jesus teach that "committing a heresy" "earns you damnation"?


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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:52 pm 
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Yep, Jesus rattled off a database of specific sins. They were even hyperlinked to King James version of the Bible.

I am not wasting time with you.

Jesus taught about obedience. Read the New Testament.

Jesus taught about the danger of false teachers. Read the New Testament.

Jesus gave us a Church and the power to bind and loose. Read the New Testament.

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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:57 pm 
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ellietrish wrote:

But that seems to support my point. Grievous matter, sufficient reflection, full consent of the will, will constitute mortal sin. These things determined within the confessional with a Priest, is a lot different from lay people on message boards having that authority.


OK, so you really don't know the conditions. Sufficient reflection is not one of them.

Because you don't know the conditions, you don't see how the conditions actually work against your stated point.

Quote:
The OPs issue was with lay people attributing heresy to other people based strictly on comments that don't conform to their wording. I can only assume why you took issue with the comment I made because the only reason you gave was 'it doesn't make sense'. That was more of a statement of your opinion about its merits rather than giving any direction on how it was faulty theologically. If it's your opinion we can simply agree to disagree, but if it's a theological error, you need to direct me to the specific heresy for me to respond. I could only assume it was something about my belief on sin and the state of sinlessness. Unless you specify your theological problem with the statement, I'm not able to properly respond.


I have specified my problem with the statement, and gone into detail in a number of posts. The primary problem with the statement is that you made it up. It's not rooted in any Church teaching whatsoever. I explained why it didn't make sense.

Further, there are interesting things happening in your response. You seem to be asserting that one may propose any position on a theological matter and, unless it is a formally defined heresy, it should be held as worthy of merit. Is that your position?

It is also interesting that, by demanding that I identify a specific heresy, you equate my telling you that your position doesn't make sense to my telling you that you are a heretic holding to some unnamed heresy. That explains a lot about your highly subjective response to the otherwise objective conversation occurring in this thread. It's also more than a little hilarious that you complain about people calling others heretics, then demand that I call you one in order for you to "properly respond."

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During His trials Our Lord would not respond to the chief priests (Mt 14:61), or Herod (Lk 23:9) or Pilate (Jn 19:9). Words had failed. All that could penetrate those hardened hearts was the witness of divine love, the offering of His life to the Father. So also for us — when words fail the greatest way to “win” an argument is by acts of love. - Fr. Paul Scalia

There is no law about nougatine. - Chef Stephane Glacier


Last edited by Danielle on Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:00 pm 
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Perhaps another approach would be more effective.

Ellietrish, you claim:
Quote:
but truly I think that all of us harbour faulty beliefs and understandings in some measure. We would be sinless if we didn't.


Please explain what makes this statement true, using Church teaching.

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During His trials Our Lord would not respond to the chief priests (Mt 14:61), or Herod (Lk 23:9) or Pilate (Jn 19:9). Words had failed. All that could penetrate those hardened hearts was the witness of divine love, the offering of His life to the Father. So also for us — when words fail the greatest way to “win” an argument is by acts of love. - Fr. Paul Scalia

There is no law about nougatine. - Chef Stephane Glacier


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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:06 pm 
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St Veronica wrote:
If only you would set aside pride and listen to the expert.

SV


But could it be said that your judgement of my 'pridefulness' and need to see me humbled before the crowd, constitutes a flaw in your Christian character? How do you know that nothing here teaches me? How do you know that I don't love this board for it's orthodoxy? How do you know that I haven't grown in immense appreciation of the witness of adult conversion from being here? How do you know that people here haven't stoked the fires of my desire to search and learn more deeply about Christ and our faith? Why does it matter that I don't seem to crawl over broken glass, self-flagellating to your feet?


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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:07 pm 
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torn wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
torn wrote:
Where did Jesus teach that "disobedience to direction of authorities" "earns you damnation"?

Where did Jesus teach that "committing a heresy" "earns you damnation"?


Seriously, you do not believe that Jesus taught sin leads to hell?

Jesus certainly never taught that all sin (unrepented) "earns you damnation". Otherwise, instead of being able to love God who is infinitely merciful, we'd all be absolutely terrified all the time in case we died suddenly having sinned without repenting.

So can anyone answer these specific questions:

Question 1a: Where did Jesus teach that "disobedience to direction of authorities" is a sin?

Question 1b: Where did Jesus teach that "committing a heresy" is a sin?

Question 2a: Where did Jesus teach that "disobedience to direction of authorities" "earns you damnation"?

Question 2b: Where did Jesus teach that "committing a heresy" "earns you damnation."?


To all of these questions, I submit:

"He that heareth you, heareth Me." Luke 10:16

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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:15 pm 
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ellietrish wrote:
St Veronica wrote:
If only you would set aside pride and listen to the expert.

SV


But could it be said that your judgement of my 'pridefulness' and need to see me humbled before the crowd, constitutes a flaw in your Christian character? How do you know that nothing here teaches me? How do you know that I don't love this board for it's orthodoxy? How do you know that I haven't grown in immense appreciation of the witness of adult conversion from being here? How do you know that people here haven't stoked the fires of my desire to search and learn more deeply about Christ and our faith? Why does it matter that I don't seem to crawl over broken glass, self-flagellating to your feet?



Your actions or rather comments demonstrate you are not willing to set aside your own positions. Nothing you do demonstrates your love for this board or it's orthodoxy. Most of your posts speak against orthodoxy. Many of your posts end up with you stating how you were raised by 'catechists' as if you can't be wrong. Many of your posts end up with you stating how you have a spiritual director as if (again) you can't be wrong. Many of your posts end up with you talking about how you are involved in spiritual exercises as if that somehow makes you unable to be wrong.

Oh yes I know, it's the readers fault. It couldn't be your own fault that this is the perception you give.


SV

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 Post subject: Re: Outrageous and offensive comments by Catholic bloggers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:19 pm 
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