Greetings friends,

Just joined this forum at the suggestion of a companion who was debating religion with me. I'm curious about the more sophisticated theological proofs for Catholicism (or theism in general).

Happy to discuss the atheistic viewpoint, clear up confusion, an attempt to understand the position of the other side.

FYI, I'm a naturalist. No afterlife, no gods, no miracles. My position would be that religion is man-made.

Also, I have some political and ideological problems with Catholicism: homosexuality, lack of women's rights, the hypocrisy of the Vatican's wealth, contraception and AIDS in Africa. I'm aware that a majority of catholics dispute many of these positions, though I find the implicit support of the governing body troubling.

I've hard that this is an intellectual forum, so I hope none of my comments are seen as sacreligious or offensive. They're not intended that way, and I hope freedom of speech and the spirit of inquiry will see my posts not banned, etc.

Looking forward to intriguing, productive dialogue.

Welcome to the board.

Welcome to the board, dschiff! Btw, it is Lent and so the board is not quite as active as usual.

Greetings from England! Hope you enjoy it here

Hello and welcome.

I'm not an intellectual, but I like to participate. I hope you don't mind a few personal questions. Have you always been an atheist? If not, what's your religious background and why did you become disillusioned with the whole god thing?

You shared a list of political and ideological problems that you have with Catholicism in particular. I suggest you take them on one at a time. Start by creating a new thread dedicated to the specific issue that interests you the most. My guess is it will belong in the Apologetic section, but don't worry about posting it in the wrong place. The administrators will move it if need be.

Thanks, everyone.

I figured I'd start off asking for the theological justifications of Catholicism, then getting into specifics, like the nature of god. I'm sure some of my challenges will come up along the way.

As for my history, I was raised in conservative Judaism, but realized I was a de facto atheist in my early teens. Still consider myself Jewish as well, ethnically.

Being disillusioned was easy - the Holocaust was my largest encounter with the problem of evil, and made me dismiss the idea of a loving or theistic god. Because of early encounters with evolution and cosmology, I found the scriptures to be very much not grounded in reality (Noah's ark, creation), and more akin to Greek and Norse mythology. I think, from there, and given the rights men get over women, that it struck me that the whole thing was man-made.

welcome to our slice of cyberspace... enjoy your stay

Welcome! I have visited Jewish cemeteries in Russia.

Welcome to DCF!

We will be happy to explain why we believe what we believe.

Dear Dschiff:

Welcome, hope you enjoy the board but a word of warning.
We don't put up with intellectual dishonesty here. Undocumented claims, illogical fallacies and ad hominem attacks make the smarter folk disinclined to comment. Lay of the land is simple, keep your comments in good faith and good taste and all is well....

Thanks, looking forward to talking.

Don't worry sun, I can have a dialogue without engaging in ad hominems or fallacies

Welcome, from a former atheist.

Welcome, from one who's seriously considered atheism ~ even *wanted* at times to become an atheist ~ but ultimately, hasn't been able to take the leap.

I'm not one of the intellectuals, but I do enjoy lurking here and am looking foward to reading your questions and the responses.

I was reading the prayers in the Breviary this morning. As I read St. Iranaeus, for some reason, you came to my mind, along with this thought:

Why would people embrace Christianity in the first century when there was a plethora of other more attractive gods to embrace? I say "attractive" in strictly humanistic thinking. The gods of Rome were much more attractive because they offered:

1. No restraint on sexual expression.

2. No fasting days

3. No hiding to worship.

4. No jail time for being a traitor to the country.

5. And certainly no prospect of certain death under certain emperors.

Why then the attraction to Christianity if it is just a myth? If it is a falsehood, then for sure no one would be interested in it. People are not very inclined to die for falsehoods.

Perhaps that which attracted many folks was:

1. The idea that perhaps there was something true (I think a lot of Romans knew that the Roman gods were a story).

2. The miracles done by the apostles and bishops of the Church.

3. The narrative of God becoming man so as to rescue us from this sad state.

4. Speaking with those who actually saw Jesus and walked with Him or with His Apostles.

5. The love among the Christians

It was said of the early Christians that they were noted for their love.

Just some thoughts that occur to me this morning. Welcome to the board!

Hi, dschiff! Welcome to the board.

This seems to be partially true for Socrates as well.

Glad you are here. Hope in proposing your ideas you will carefully consider all reasonable arguments. I think you will find most here fair and courteous.

Thanks everyone!

Light of the East: I see your point is that people wouldn't accept Christianity, given a more enjoyable alternative, unless they had go reason. I'd point out that we can extend that to atheism. In Christianity, you are offered a divine protector, a soul, and even immortality, perfect happiness in heaven. In atheism, there is nothing quite so grand - our bodies die, there is no afterlife, and there is no divine purpose. So the sheer unattractiveness of atheism should count in its favor, compared to all the promises offered by Christianity.

But let's leave that for the forums, perhaps?

We should get to it immediately.