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 Post subject: Why can't it be both?
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 7:17 pm 
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Hi. First let me start off saying I am not a Catholic. This is the only site I've found regarding the Da Vinci code where people are having good discussion about the book/movie. Let me also say that I have both read the book and watched the movie. I encourage you all to do the same. If you are strong in your faith, it shouldn't hurt your faith. I think it's always better to have all the information you can get and make an educated decision. Not to mention a lot easier to discuss something you know a lot about. . . IMHO.

Now I may be offensive to some here and I apologize. I am a lifelong Christian, currently not attending any church however. I respect Catholics' beliefs, just as I respect other denominations' beliefs, even those I do not agree with. . . My real question here is WHY can't it be both that Jesus was divine and that he was a man. Not merely man, better than us, but nevertheless a man, with a physical body. As far as genetics go (though its not that simple of course) he was "half" of each. I don't understand the uproar with this idea that he could have been married. It seems there is more controversy over that than over the fact that the book claims he was a MERE mortal. I want someone to tell me why they are 100% sure Jesus wasn't married and had children? Where's the sin in that?? Sex? Sex in itself as I have always understood it, is not a sin. Sex outside of marriage, sodomy, homosexuality, fornication of any kind.. yes. But sex in a marriage? Why is that sinful? Isn't it basically exactly what God told Adam and Eve to do in Genesis? Is it not so that if no one ever had intercourse, the world would have ended long ago...? I'm just confused as to why this is such an issue. Yes, the Bible does not say Jesus is married. And I believe in the Bible.. but how can anyone think that the Bible is THE only word of God or account of Jesus' life. Couldn't there be more we don't know about? I hate to quote something from the book, but it is true to me that Jesus as a married man and a father makes more sense than Jesus as a bachelor. Marriage has always been viewed as a holy relationship, a close relationship, and overall a "good thing". Is it fair that the Savior of all of humankind be denied such a thing? And isn't it true that to be called a rabbi in the Jewish faith, you must be married?

Now don't get me started on the divinity of Christ. The book and movie both contradict themselves in that aspect. To prove Christ is not divine, they quote from the gospel of Phillip, which was supposedly left out of the Bible as we know it.. but in the very quote they use, Peter is referring to Christ as "our Saviour". I don't doubt that Christ is God in the flesh... I've always felt that in my heart. But I do not claim to know either way about his marital status, if he was a father, OR even the complete accuracy of the good book. The Bible is still a product of man, either way you look at it. Men wrote it (usually inspired by God, I know!), men translated it and men decided what should be included or excluded. I feel that we have what we are meant to have, what we can handle.. But I seriously doubt it is ALL there is to tell about God's works or the life of Christ.

I'm sorry... I've rambled on and on. These are some questions I want answered. Any ideas, ramblings or additional points and questions are more than welcome. I think at least one good thing has come from this movie - people are definitely talking about spirituality and God more than usual.

Thanks for your time and God bless!


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 7:41 pm 
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I am also puzzled by the virulence of the reaction to the notion that Jesus was married. If he was, what does it matter?

However, I have a speculation. (Note the word "speculation.") The Catholic Church has made much of the benefits of male celibacy. Its priests are unmarried males. This might be a hard thing to support if Jesus was married.

It also has a doctrine that Mary (mother of Jesus) was a virgin until her death. The importance of that puzzles me also, but it fits with the idealization of the celibate life.

Somewhere here it seems celibacy is considered better than marriage. I don't know why.

Now why Christians who are not Catholics would object to a married Jesus is a complete puzzle.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 7:50 pm 
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Ah.. good point. I had thought of that, but it still doesn't answer your last question about non-Catholic Christians objections to the idea. My husband attempted to talk to his boss, who is Baptist, about the idea and he was absolutely horrified and started bringing literature to my husband and treating him like he was the anti-Christ.. His response was "Jesus couldn't be married, he didn't have a sinful bone in his body!!" What is the big deal? What's the sin in marriage? Oh well... thanks for responding. Glad to see someone else who is puzzled by the uproar!

PS: I don't know very much about Catholic faith... I had no idea that it was believed Mary was a virgin until her death??? I thought the entire "Virgin Mary" issue was just the virgin conception? Never heard that before.

Anyone else wanna discuss this?


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:11 pm 
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Opppoy wrote:
I am also puzzled by the virulence of the reaction to the notion that Jesus was married. If he was, what does it matter?

However, I have a speculation. (Note the word "speculation.") The Catholic Church has made much of the benefits of male celibacy. Its priests are unmarried males. This might be a hard thing to support if Jesus was married.



This is a ridiculous argument based on glaring, mind boggling ignorance. Peter was married, this presents no obstacle to celibacy.

You may as well argue that the fact that Jesus probably didn't know Latin 'presents a major problem' for Catholics who think the Mass should be said in Latin, it is just a stupid argument.

The reason 'why it matters' is that it isn't true, and the truth matters. If someone were to publish a book that sold 40 million copies which convinced many people that the sun revolves around the Earth, I rather doubt that astronomers would shrug their shoulders with indifference and just let it slide. Yes, it does matter, it matters because it isn't true.



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It also has a doctrine that Mary (mother of Jesus) was a virgin until her death. The importance of that puzzles me also, but it fits with the idealization of the celibate life

Somewhere here it seems celibacy is considered better than marriage. I don't know why.



:roll: More ignorance, blantant ignorance. How about from now on letting Catholics explain what we think, and not TELLING us what we think? We are here to answer any questions you might have, and would frankly prefer if you did not put idiotic words in our mouths, thank you very much. If you are going to answer your own questions, then you may as well have a conversation with yourself.

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Now why Christians who are not Catholics would object to a married Jesus is a complete puzzle.



And there you go, you just refuted your own argument didn't you? If Christians other than Catholics care, than logically this must prove that the Catholic concern about the issue is based on something more than a desire to defend celibacy.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:17 pm 
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Whoa. Sorry. Why must you get so angry? I know you are defending your faith and that's very respectable. However, I do see the point of the other poster... WHY does it matter if Jesus was married? What is the harm in it. The idea of him being only a man and not divine... I see the harm in that and I disagree with that. But what difference does it make if Jesus was married, honestly. Okay.. so you say it matters because it isn't true. Good point. But honestly how can you be sure? It doesn't say in the Bible, to my knowledge, that Jesus was definitely unmarried. It doesn't say either way, correct? Then how are we to know for sure?


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:21 pm 
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Doomlock,

1. How do you know Jesus was never married?

2. Is it Catholic doctrine that Mary (mother of Jesus) was always a virgin?

3. Does Catholic doctrine consider celibacy a superior state to marriage?

4. Must Catholics and Christians who are not Catholics have the same reasons for rejecting the proposition Jesus was married?


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:23 pm 
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rheanna1014 wrote:
WHY does it matter if Jesus was married? What is the harm in it. The idea of him being only a man and not divine... I see the harm in that and I disagree with that. But what difference does it make if Jesus was married, honestly. Okay.. so you say it matters because it isn't true. Good point. But honestly how can you be sure? It doesn't say in the Bible, to my knowledge, that Jesus was definitely unmarried. It doesn't say either way, correct? Then how are we to know for sure?



If Jesus had been married, we would know, there is no way that such a vitally important fact would have been omitted, there is simply no credible evidence for it. None whatever. There is more evidence that Elvis is alive than that Jesus was married.


Now, is it possible that no one was aware of his marriage for 2,000 years until someone in the 20th century finally figured it out? It is 'possible' in the same sense that it is 'possible' that one might be 'possible' that the world has existed for only 5 minutes, and that all of our memory have been planted inside our brains by an evil scientist.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't it be both?
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:26 pm 
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rheanna1014 wrote:
I want someone to tell me why they are 100% sure Jesus wasn't married and had children?


Because there is no credible evidence to support this. And, as Doom has stated, truth matters.

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Marriage has always been viewed as a holy relationship, a close relationship, and overall a "good thing". Is it fair that the Savior of all of humankind be denied such a thing?


Are you actually saying that all the unmarried folk in this world are somehow being treated unfairly by God?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:33 pm 
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It appears there is no evidence that Jesus was married, and there is no evidence that he was not married. Lack of evidence demonstrates neither proposition.

Is it possible many Christians choose to believe Jesus was not married even though no evidence demonstrates it? If so, why is it important to them?


Last edited by Opppoy on Wed May 31, 2006 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:33 pm 
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No, you misunderstood my meaning Brian. I don't think that the unmarried are being treated unfairly by God. I just mean why would it be that Jesus was not "allowed" to be married? I still just do not understand why it is such a bad thing to think it's a possibility. And please do not use the test of time as a reason.. Lots of things were believed for years, centuries even, before being proven incorrect. Just because an idea has been around for a long time does not make it correct. And no, there is no credible evidence to support Jesus' marriage. Could one not argue there is no credible evidence to support God? Some would say the Bible is not credible. Isn't it all dependent on what you call credible or what you feel? You could say God is not fact (though I would disagree). You can't see him. You may feel him, yes, but once again that is open to your own personal feelings and interpretations.

STILL no one has answered my question. Why is it such a big issue to think it could be possible.... You really don't know for certain it isn't true no more than you personally know what it is like to walk on the moon. And no more than I know its true. Also no one has brought up the rabbi/marriage thing. Am I incorrect in my knowledge here? What it comes down to is there is no evidence either way. So why are you right and I'm wrong?


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:34 pm 
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Opppoy wrote:
Doomlock,

1. How do you know Jesus was never married?


There is absolutely no credible evidence to support it whatever, none, zero, zilch, nada, nothing. It is not up to me to prove that he was never married, but up to others to prove that he was, and no one has done so.

Quote:
2. Is it Catholic doctrine that Mary (mother of Jesus) was always a virgin?


Yes, I wasn't disputing that portion of your comment, I was disputing the part about 'the glorification of celibacy'.

Quote:
3. Does Catholic doctrine consider celibacy a superior state to marriage?



No, and think about this logically for a second, marriage is a sacrament, celibacy is not, not even taking a formal vow of celibacy qualifies as a sacrament. Which is higher? A sacrament, or a non-sacrament? Ordination is a sacrament, but celibacy is not an essential component of it, the priest (in the Latin rite) doesn't take a vow never to have sex, he takes a vow never to get a married, the former is implied by the latter for any Catholic who takes the Church teaching on sexuality seriously.

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4. Must Catholics and Christians who are not Catholics have the same reasons for rejecting the proposition Jesus was married?


It would be odd, would it not, if different groups of Christians came to the same conclusions through wildly different arguments?

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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:34 pm 
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Looks like we were saying the same thing at the same time, except I'm a whole lot wordier! :).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:36 pm 
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BTW, here is Catholic author Mark Shea's response to the whole "Was Jesus married?" notion:

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There is nothing to it. The reality is that the intensely hypothetical and remote nature of the speculation here is simply contrary to the entire memory of Christendom on this question for 2000 years-beginning with the apostles. The simple fact is, the whole of the Christian testimony on this subject from Christ's time down to the present is that Jesus remained unmarried. Contrary to the claim of the website, the tradition that Jesus was unmarried did not "begin in gnosticism". It began with the apostles' memories of Jesus and was always recognized as a genuine apostolic teaching, even by Church Fathers who were mortal foes of gnosticism and all its works and ways. Indeed, Jesus himself commended those who were "eunuchs for the kingdom of God" (i.e. "virgins") (Matthew 19:12).

The web site's exegesis fails to take into account the point John is attempting to convey in his account of the Miracle at Cana. In that account (and elsewhere) Jesus simply is not the earthly Bridegroom at the earthly wedding no matter how much ingenious reading between the lines we attempt. However, the earthly wedding, like all earthly marriage, does provide the archetypal image of Jesus as the Cosmic Bridegroom of the Church and that is what John wishes us to see, just as Paul wishes us to see it in Ephesians 5. John the Baptist's language describing Jesus as the Bridegroom is clearly figurative, not descriptive of a relationship with Mary Magdalene (who is simply absent in the Johannine narrative except in the resurrection account and who comes nowhere near the wedding at Cana). The attempt to transform Mary's cry of "Rabboni" on the morning of the Resurrection into a confession of her married status as Christ's earthly wife is utterly without attestation anywhere in the Christian tradition. John, in fact, tells us what Mary meant: she called Jesus "Teacher", not "husband." (John 20:16).

One good rule of thumb whenever one encounters a "real Jesus" who is radically at odds with the picture offered by the ordinary Tradition, Scripture and magisterial teaching of the Church is to examine the dominant fixations of one's own age and see how much of a Rorschach ink blot test that new "real Jesus" is. Oddly enough, when liberal Protestantism went gaga for the Social Gospel a hundred years ago, the Real Jesus looked very much like a Social Gospel Protestant a la Albert Schweitzer. When the world went nuts for Marxism, a new Real Jesus suddenly appeared on the scene as the First Marxist preaching the Sermon on the Barricades to the Oppressed Proletariat. Nazism was fond of discovering a Real Jesus who was "really" an Aryan eager to condemn Judaism and not beholden to his Jewish ancestry. Ironic postmodernity sees an ironic postmodern Jesus, feminism sees a feminist Jesus and New Age "prophets" see Real Jesus who offer the same sort of pantheistic tapioca they offer. Of the making of "real Jesuses" there is no end.

In our case, we live in a popular, celebrity culture that is obsessively fascinated with sex and with the sex lives (real and imagined) of the famous. By some unfathomable coincidence, that's just what this sort of speculation about Jesus resembles too. Similarly, "documentaries" on the tube are, of course, geared to appeal to that sex-obsessed culture first and only secondarily to accuracy (the goal of TV, after all, is to sell shampoo and beer, not to be tremendously accurate). In other words, this "real Jesus", like all the previous "real Jesuses" tells us more about our current cultural quirks and obsessions than it does about anything substantial in the record.

Further, the speculation about Jesus' sex life feeds a primal American habit of rejecting "the official story" (and feeding our pride as People Who Aren't Told What to Think by Sinister Vatican Officials). When you are engaged in the immensely ego-gratifying project of Gathering One Spotless Church from the Corpse of Christendom, you don't suffer from the troubling questions of self-esteem and humility that lesser breeds without the law so often stumble over. Like Buzz Lightyear, you're always sure. You have the inside scoop! Only fools and simpletons would accept the Official Story that, say, the earth is round or JFK is really dead. You know The Truth is Out There and you aren't afraid to Tell It Like it Is. Only saps fall for the Commonly Accepted Story.

The trouble is, sometimes the commonly accepted story is commonly accepted because it is the true story. It becomes the official story, not because Officialdom tricked the dumb sheep into buying it, but because the whole herd of sheep, beginning with apostles who ordained the officials, told Officialdom, "This is what happened."

Attempts to chalk up Christian belief in the celibacy of Jesus to "gnosticism" are therefore fundamentally clueless about the Catholic view of sex, just as Marxist atheist attempts to divine a Marxist atheist "Jesus" lack a basic grip on reality. Catholics do not believe Jesus was a virgin because sex is evil any more than they believe Jesus distrusted Mammon based on an atheistic theory of class warfare. On the contrary, for Catholics marriage is a sacrament and sex is therefore holy in the context of the sacrament. But as Jesus makes clear, though marriage is holy, virginity is holy too. It is not a case of good and bad but of good and better. Jesus chose the way of virginity as a sign of his consecration to the Church, his Bride. That was John's point in the story of the Wedding at Cana. It was John's point in speaking of Jesus as the Bridegroom, and it remains the Church's point today-a point preserved, no thanks to gnosticism, in the apostolic Tradition, Scripture and Magisterial teaching of the Church for 2000 years. The only "real Jesus" is the one the Church has proclaimed since Pentecost. Accept no new improved versions.

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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:36 pm 
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This is not a courtroom. Why is it up to others to prove he is married instead of up to you to prove he wasn't... We aren't proving guilt here. There is no evidence either way. We agree on that right?


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:40 pm 
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Opppoy wrote:
It appears there is no evidence that Jesus was married, and there is no evidence that he was not married. Lack of evidence demonstrates neither proposition.



No, this is poor logic, there is no such thing as 'evidence that one is not married'... how would one go about proving such a thing, by showing the non-existence of a marriage certificate? How does one go about doing that? It is ridiculous.

No, the burden of proof is on the one who wishes to prove a proposition, not on the one who denies. Lack of evidence that someone did something is evidence that he did not do it.

It is like saying that it is up to the defense attorney in a criminal trial to prove that his client did not commit the crime he is accused of, and that if there is no evidence he didn't do it, and no evidence he did, then we can't draw any conclusion, in fact, if there is no evidence he DID commit the crime, then we must conclude that he did not.

Quote:
Is it possible many Christians choose to believe Jesus was not married even though no evidence demonstrates it? If so, why is it important to them?


Logically, it is IMPOSSIBLE to 'prove that Jesus was not married', it is a ridiculous thing to ask someone to do, you cannot prove that someone did not do something.

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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:41 pm 
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rheanna1014 wrote:
This is not a courtroom. Why is it up to others to prove he is married instead of up to you to prove he wasn't... We aren't proving guilt here. There is no evidence either way. We agree on that right?



No, we do not agree on that. The lack of evidence FOR the idea that Jesus was married is itself evidence that he was not.

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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:44 pm 
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rheanna1014 wrote:
This is not a courtroom. Why is it up to others to prove he is married instead of up to you to prove he wasn't... We aren't proving guilt here. There is no evidence either way. We agree on that right?


Wrong. There is over 2,000 years worth of Christian teaching that says Jesus wasn't married.

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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:49 pm 
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Doomlock,

Do you contend lack of evidence demonstrates a proposition to be false?

Proposition 1: Jesus was married.
Evidence: None.
Does lack of evidence make this proposition false?

Proposition 2: Jesus was a bachelor
Evidence: None.
Does lack of evidence make this proposition false?

The burden of proof rests with whoever contends either proposition is true. Neither can be proven.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:57 pm 
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Doomlock Holmes wrote:
rheanna1014 wrote:
This is not a courtroom. Why is it up to others to prove he is married instead of up to you to prove he wasn't... We aren't proving guilt here. There is no evidence either way. We agree on that right?



No, we do not agree on that. The lack of evidence FOR the idea that Jesus was married is itself evidence that he was not.


Let's try this: The lack of evidence FOR the idea that Jesus was a bachelor is itself evidence that he was not a bachelor.

Or how about this: The lack of evidence FOR the idea that Jesus was not a bachelor is itself evidence that he was a bachelor.

I think the belief in a bachelor Jesus is grounded in emotion and tradition rather than logic.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:59 pm 
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Crusader X wrote:
rheanna1014 wrote:
This is not a courtroom. Why is it up to others to prove he is married instead of up to you to prove he wasn't... We aren't proving guilt here. There is no evidence either way. We agree on that right?


Wrong. There is over 2,000 years worth of Christian teaching that says Jesus wasn't married.


Do you contend the truth of a proposition is a function of how long people have believed it? Why?


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