It is clear to me, KEN, that at this point you are arguing merely for the sake of arguing, which has been your modus operandi in every one of your incarations here. Since I do not believe you are arguing in good faith, I terminate this conversation.

I'm sorry you are terminating, because I think we were identifying the basis which many use for the bachelor idea. It depends on their ability to accurately mimic the editorial judgement of the gospel authors. That makes their claimed ability critical to their case.

In any case, I thank you for helping me gain a bit more insight into my question.

This should just end. At this point I'm sorry I ever started it. I won't change anyone's mind, nor will they change mine. At least I can leave saying that I do not claim to be all knowing. I came in simply stating it could be a possibility and asking "why not"... I didn't expect this.

Almost makes you wonder if there really is some crazy cover-up by "the church" the way you all get so passionate about it. Maybe that's going too far. If so, I apologize, but I still stand my ground that it could be possible and that claiming to know one way or the other for absolute certain is ignorant.

There are lots of gray areas in this world and I guess some people don't deal with it too well. I could go on with other issues I'm curious about that seem to freak a lot of really religious people out, such as does someone really go to Hell, say a child, that never had the chance to learn about Jesus because his family and community was Buddhist. Some say yes, some say no... But that's a whole other topic and one I don't want to get into with overly defensive, all knowing people of ANY faith.

I say its crazy to think you're always right and to claim to know exactly what God meant. I suppose that's why I choose to research, pray, AND read scripture at home and go by how I feel.. instead of going to a church that pretends to know everything. Haven't found a church yet that accepts its lack of knowledge. Doubt I will.

Sorry if that message offends anyone. Its certainly not meant to. I'm only stating how I feel.

I dunno Rheanna....I suppose if someone went around telling lies about your family you'd go to their defense wouldn't you? Just because we are defending the Church doesn't mean there is a cover up. Should we just sit back and ignore lies....even lies that can lead others astray?

SV

Another question for you Rheanna...where does the Bible or Christ tell you that we are supposed to read Scripture at home and then just go by how we 'feel'? Don't you think that someone can come up with about any conclusion they want that way?

Hmmmm I don't 'feel' like adultry is a sin....I don't 'feel' like fornication is a sin....I don't 'feel' like homosexuality is a sin......you are talking about ending up with some sort of moral and spiritual relativism.

Do you think Christ abandoned His Church and left us as orphans to figure it out on our own? Christ didn't leave us any guide?


SV

I second that. The Catholic Church is my family, and I will defend it from all attacks as I would any of my relatives. Though fictional, the Code attacks my family, and I must defend it. Many people have learned that if they attack anyone in my family, physically or otherwise, they'll unleash a lion.

Rheanna, I cannot and wil not sit back and watch people openly attack and misrepresent something I love so much. I suspect you feel the same way about the things you love and believe in. If you find our defense of the Catholic Church not to your liking or too closed-minded, well, that's merely your opinion and there's very little I can do to change it but to pray for your heart and mind to be open to the reasons we defend our Church so dutifully and willingly.

God Bless you.

What I am talking about is not the defamation of the Church by Dan Brown. I am speaking only of the possibility of Jesus being married and having children. To me, that is not "someone telling lies" because, as we have stated many many many times, there is no proof either way. It would only be telling lies about the CHURCH if I was agreeing with all the ideas in the Da Vinci Code, but alas I am not, just speculating on one. By saying it almost makes you wonder about a coverup, I am simply referring to how defensive everyone has because over an issue they really do not know for sure about. Not about controversies in the early Church, real or imagined.

Either way, we are not going to agree on this issue. That is abundantly clear is it not?

I respect your opinions, whether I agree on them or not. I'd say you think I'm a loon, but that's okay too. I'm also allowed to have and express my opinions. I suppose I am in the wrong place to do that though, so I'll be going now.

Thanks for the discussion.

Rheanna,

Don't play the 'oh I can't speak because they won't let me' card....no one here has said you cannot speak your mind.

Christ was not married. Christ did not have children. Nothing in the history of Judaism or early Christianity says otherwise. There is no cover up.

I don't think you understand the nature of Christ if you assume it is a possibility.

SV

Sorry, didn't see the other message. I can completely understand your defensiveness of your church, but as I stated, my throwing out the possibility that Jesus was a husband and father is not an attack on your Church. Yes, many ideas in the Da Vinci code (especially the book, the movie was a lot more "pc" and actually showed that the Church was good overall, just a few bad individuals, like any group) do attack your Church, or your family. I respect your faith in your family, your church, your faith. I honestly do. I just don't understand why an idea that is different can never be accepted or even pondered. I still maintain that to pretend to know everything is to put yourself right up with God. There is so much we have no clue about. Once again, that is why I am not in a Church. I don't like the attitude that "they" are the only right church, just as you are, and Buddhists believe the same way and on and on and on. Its time we humans start accepting that we really know NOTHING.

But again, sorry if I offended you and sorry if you felt I was openly attacking you. I don't feel that I was attacking anyone here or your Church.

God bless you also and good evening (or whatever time it is in your part of the world).

So now I don't know about Christ. . .

Fine. I probably don't know as much as you, I'll give you that. But I'm not backing down from the fact that being open minded (to a point) is a good thing. You really do not know its not true, no more than I know it is. No one yet has explained why it bothers you so much, despite saying they have. There are different ways to view Christ. You assume your way is correct naturally. I don't really have a "way" so I guess I'm still looking. I can mark one place to look off the list.

Here's an interesting link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christology

I apologize if someone has already posted this.

Have a good evening.

Rheanna,

It most definately is an attack on my Church to suggest Christ was married and had children. You can ponder whatever you want....however Dan Brown isn't merely pondering.

You aren't in a Church because you seem to hold to relativist ideology....and I say that based on your comments.

There is only ONE Truth.

SV

Please do not misquote me. I said you don't understand the nature of Christ.....you changed the wording and the meaning.

Yes I do know that it's a lie.

And if you were really looking with a sincere heart then you wouldn't write off a whole Church due to exchanges on a message forum. Nothing would keep you from the Truth.


SV

Of course there is only one truth. Yours right?

Guess what. That's the same thing a friend of mine thinks. She's Mormon. I bet you think she's wrong huh? And what about my Baptist aunt? She is wrong too according to you. But guess what, she is right according to her. There may be only one truth, but who are you to say you have it?

Once again, the truth. You assume its yours. That you've found it. Others assume the same thing. I bet God laughs at all of us, how much we think we know...

Missed another post and then I'm going. I have to respond to this post:

Another question for you Rheanna...where does the Bible or Christ tell you that we are supposed to read Scripture at home and then just go by how we 'feel'? Don't you think that someone can come up with about any conclusion they want that way?

Hmmmm I don't 'feel' like adultry is a sin....I don't 'feel' like fornication is a sin....I don't 'feel' like homosexuality is a sin......you are talking about ending up with some sort of moral and spiritual relativism.

Do you think Christ abandoned His Church and left us as orphans to figure it out on our own? Christ didn't leave us any guide?


Perhaps you have not heard of the holy spirit? Do you honestly think that a person cannot read the Bible at home, pray to God in the name of Jesus and come to their own conclusions about some things. That really says a lot for what you think of our minds and human nature in general. Perhaps you have forgotten that God is the one who created us and gave us a brain to think for ourselves with?

I choose to not go to Church because all the churches I have attended have a cockiness about them, a "we are 100% right" attitude that disgusts me. I am perfectly capable of being with God without being in a Church setting or with other people for that matter. It is a personal matter. It doesn't matter what building you are in.

http://www.catholic.com/library/crackin ... i_code.asp

This should give you better insight to why Catholics feel like they do about this book/movie.

As far as who am I to say I have the Truth....I am a follower of Christ and Christ is the one who established the Catholic Church. The Mormon Church was established by Joseph Smith in the 1800's.....the Baptist Church was started by various men over the past 200 years as well. Neither of them were founded ON Christ, by Christ.

Have you ever studied early Christianity?


SV

Oh, and my cousin's husband is Holiness. They truly do believe it's all a matter of "conviction". That fornication is not a sin unless you realize it is or feel it's wrong. So yes, some do believe that way. I certainly do not. But as I said, I do feel that my God created me and gave me the ability to think, to pray, to learn from the Bible without a preacher, or a priest or a bishop - whatever - telling me what it means.

No I have not really studied early Christianity, I'm sorry. This is the first time I've heard that Catholicism was started by Christ himself. I think it was started by Peter, who as we all know, was a man, not a God. Just as those other churches were started by men. Men that claim to have been inspired by God as I understood it. I suppose you think they are just on the wrong path and pathetic. Lots of Protestants feel that you all are lost, especially going by some of your history (not that its your fault) and the issue with all the priests (who are supposedly very close to God) committing such horrendous crimes and shaming an entire Church...

It is all relative. It's all a matter of opinion and who are you to say yours are better than anyone elses. Honestly.

Don't be snide. You have not answered me as to what Christ or the Bible teaches about whether or not a person can sit home with their Bible and let the Holy Spirit tell them what they ned to know or the conclusions.

Of course you have all sorts of people saying the Holy Spirit told me X....well they can't all be right and they don't all agree...so how do you determine who's really led by the Holy Spirit??

You are holding to this idea and it's not even taught in the Bible. What does the Bible say the pillar and foundation of Truth is? Where does the Bible say sit home with your Bible and wait for the Holy Spirit to reveal to you what to think?

It does matter what building you are in....Christ makes that pretty clear too.

SV