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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:21 pm 
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rheanna1014 wrote:
I say its crazy to think you're always right and to claim to know exactly what God meant. I suppose that's why I choose to research, pray, AND read scripture at home and go by how I feel.. instead of going to a church that pretends to know everything. Haven't found a church yet that accepts its lack of knowledge. Doubt I will.


rheanna1014, after reading much of this thread, I am struck at how 'relativist' all things are to you. FWIW, God did only institute one Church. It is the pillar and foundation of Truth and is inseparable from Him. And the only reason we know this is because the Church tells us so - by providing His revelation to us (through its written and oral Tradition). The Church does certainly lack a means of proclaiming all knowledge since God has not (for whatever reason) allowed that it should proclaim such. All it can proclaim - and absolutely without error - is that which God has allowed it to proclaim (such as those things that Dan Brown and many others like to question) that Jesus was God, that Jesus did die and resurrect Himself, that salvation is attainable if one follows what the CHurch (which again, God is inseparable from) proclaims concerning salvation, etc. What the Church lacks knowledge of (or doesn't proclaim) covers all kinds of things - laws of physics, physical chemistry, etc..

Your lack of desire to delve into this subject except on the most shallow of terms is a bit disturbing, particularly when you seem to want to debate some of these issues. How do we know with absolute certainty that Jesus was not married to a human person (the CHurch is often referred to as His bride)? For the same reason that we know He was divine, for the same reason we know of His resurrection, the same reason we believe any of the Church's writings (ie, the Christian scriptures) etc. - because His Church proclaims it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:21 pm 
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And you all seem to love using the test of time as reason. Just because a Church has been around a long time doesn't mean its correct. Lots of ideas have been around long periods of time and then proven wrong. I am NOT saying your ideas will all be proven wrong. I am simply saying that to make a point. Just because Baptist religion has been around 1/10 of the time that Catholicism has doesn't make it wrong. Jews have been around longer than Catholics. Am I to assume by your reasoning that makes them "more correct?"


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:25 pm 
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I am appalled at this way of thinking and yet somehow in awe by how much you believe in it...

Things are relative to me because I do not have a Church to defend, as I have now said several times. I don't put faith into people. I put faith in God and in what He says to me. Not what people say. Sorry. Are you saying you do not believe in the Holy Ghost?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:26 pm 
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rheanna1014 wrote:
No I have not really studied early Christianity, I'm sorry. This is the first time I've heard that Catholicism was started by Christ himself. I think it was started by Peter, who as we all know, was a man, not a God. Just as those other churches were started by men. Men that claim to have been inspired by God as I understood it. I suppose you think they are just on the wrong path and pathetic. Lots of Protestants feel that you all are lost, especially going by some of your history (not that its your fault) and the issue with all the priests (who are supposedly very close to God) committing such horrendous crimes and shaming an entire Church...

It is all relative. It's all a matter of opinion and who are you to say yours are better than anyone elses. Honestly.



You need to undertake a good study of early Christanity. Christ (and this is in the Bible) gave the keys unto Peter....He told Peter He was founding His Church upon him....Peter was the first pope.

Yes other faiths are on the wrong path...they hold various parts of the Truth but are missing parts as well....some of them are in more error than others.

I know what Protestants think....I wasn't raised Catholic. There isn't a faith anywhere that doesn't contain sinners. The only difference is the media focused on the Catholic Church as opposed to the Baptist or Pentacostal or Church of Christ.....if you think there aren't scandals in those Churches you are naieve.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:27 pm 
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rheanna1014 wrote:
I am appalled at this way of thinking and yet somehow in awe by how much you believe in it...

Things are relative to me because I do not have a Church to defend, as I have now said several times. I don't put faith into people. I put faith in God and in what He says to me. Not what people say. Sorry. Are you saying you do not believe in the Holy Ghost?


Not even close!! The Holy Spirit is very important to the Catholic Church.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:29 pm 
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rheanna1014 wrote:
I am appalled at this way of thinking and yet somehow in awe by how much you believe in it...

Things are relative to me because I do not have a Church to defend, as I have now said several times. I don't put faith into people. I put faith in God and in what He says to me. Not what people say. Sorry. Are you saying you do not believe in the Holy Ghost?



We believe in the Truth.

How do you know it's God talking to you? Are you incapable of being mislead?

No one here is claiming to deny the Holy Ghost. Now are you going to answer my questions above about where the Bible teaches we are supposed to go sit with our Bible and ask the Holy Ghost for answers?

What does the Bible say is the pillar and foundation of Truth?


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“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:33 pm 
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rheanna1014 wrote:
And you all seem to love using the test of time as reason. Just because a Church has been around a long time doesn't mean its correct. Lots of ideas have been around long periods of time and then proven wrong. I am NOT saying your ideas will all be proven wrong. I am simply saying that to make a point. Just because Baptist religion has been around 1/10 of the time that Catholicism has doesn't make it wrong. Jews have been around longer than Catholics. Am I to assume by your reasoning that makes them "more correct?"



Ok so you think Christ abandoned the Christians of the world until the Baptist Church came along 1800 years after His death to show people the Truth? That's the same arguement made by the Mormons.....of course it's not Biblical because Christ promised to never abandon us.

The Jews are part of the old covenant. Christianity is the fullfillment.

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“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't it be both?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:38 pm 
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Have you ever seen "The Last Temptation of Christ"? That movie (based upon the novel by Nikos Kazantzakis) addresses each and everyone one of your points. The "temptation," for those unfamiliar with that book/movie, is what was taken to be DVC's central premise - i.e., marrying Mary Magdalene. In "Last Temptation," the fictitious representation of Jesus didn't really waive his divinity or anything, he only *pondered* it - but didn't actually follow-through (which is what DVC proposes happened.)

I re-watched LTOC after seeing the (far inferior) DVC, and I'm re-watching a few scenes, again, after reading your comments...


rheanna1014 wrote:
Hi. First let me start off saying I am not a Catholic. This is the only site I've found regarding the Da Vinci code where people are having good discussion about the book/movie. Let me also say that I have both read the book and watched the movie. I encourage you all to do the same. If you are strong in your faith, it shouldn't hurt your faith. I think it's always better to have all the information you can get and make an educated decision. Not to mention a lot easier to discuss something you know a lot about. . . IMHO.

Now I may be offensive to some here and I apologize. I am a lifelong Christian, currently not attending any church however. I respect Catholics' beliefs, just as I respect other denominations' beliefs, even those I do not agree with. . . My real question here is WHY can't it be both that Jesus was divine and that he was a man. Not merely man, better than us, but nevertheless a man, with a physical body. As far as genetics go (though its not that simple of course) he was "half" of each. I don't understand the uproar with this idea that he could have been married. It seems there is more controversy over that than over the fact that the book claims he was a MERE mortal. I want someone to tell me why they are 100% sure Jesus wasn't married and had children? Where's the sin in that?? Sex? Sex in itself as I have always understood it, is not a sin. Sex outside of marriage, sodomy, homosexuality, fornication of any kind.. yes. But sex in a marriage? Why is that sinful? Isn't it basically exactly what God told Adam and Eve to do in Genesis? Is it not so that if no one ever had intercourse, the world would have ended long ago...? I'm just confused as to why this is such an issue. Yes, the Bible does not say Jesus is married. And I believe in the Bible.. but how can anyone think that the Bible is THE only word of God or account of Jesus' life. Couldn't there be more we don't know about? I hate to quote something from the book, but it is true to me that Jesus as a married man and a father makes more sense than Jesus as a bachelor. Marriage has always been viewed as a holy relationship, a close relationship, and overall a "good thing". Is it fair that the Savior of all of humankind be denied such a thing? And isn't it true that to be called a rabbi in the Jewish faith, you must be married?

Now don't get me started on the divinity of Christ. The book and movie both contradict themselves in that aspect. To prove Christ is not divine, they quote from the gospel of Phillip, which was supposedly left out of the Bible as we know it.. but in the very quote they use, Peter is referring to Christ as "our Saviour". I don't doubt that Christ is God in the flesh... I've always felt that in my heart. But I do not claim to know either way about his marital status, if he was a father, OR even the complete accuracy of the good book. The Bible is still a product of man, either way you look at it. Men wrote it (usually inspired by God, I know!), men translated it and men decided what should be included or excluded. I feel that we have what we are meant to have, what we can handle.. But I seriously doubt it is ALL there is to tell about God's works or the life of Christ.

I'm sorry... I've rambled on and on. These are some questions I want answered. Any ideas, ramblings or additional points and questions are more than welcome. I think at least one good thing has come from this movie - people are definitely talking about spirituality and God more than usual.

Thanks for your time and God bless!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:43 pm 
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Wow, this thread went down hill fast. I agree that an attack against the church is an attack against family, so it is hard to swallow without getting somewhat rialed. I have to add that it gets really frustrating when an argument gets started and some of the points are ignored.

I can't imagine how bashing each other's denominations is going to solve anything though.

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1. How do you know Jesus was never married?

2. Is it Catholic doctrine that Mary (mother of Jesus) was always a virgin?

3. Does Catholic doctrine consider celibacy a superior state to marriage?

4. Must Catholics and Christians who are not Catholics have the same reasons for rejecting the proposition Jesus was married?


1. There are 3 reasons that I believe in what the church teaches about Jesus not being married besides the fact that I believe the church to be infallible. a.) I can't imagine that it would not have been mentioned in any of the books of the Bible if He had been married. b.) If Jesus had been married and the wife was living at the time of the crucifixion, He would have made arrangements for her to be taken care of just like he did with Mary. c.) Someone else mentioned this early...but what would his children have been? As Catholics we have to be open to having children in order for a marriage to be valid. Considering that we believe that Jesus founded our church, we believe that he would hold true to what we believe. He would have had to be open to having children. They would have turned out to be real life Hercules. (I also think the argument of the church being his bride is very good. I just didn't think of that one. :wink: )

2. Yes, it is Catholic doctrine that Mary remained a virgin. We believe that we are all born with original sin (OS). Mary was immaculately conceived which means that she was born without OS so that she would be free of any stain and be able to cary the Son of God in her womb. If she had had any more children, they would have had to have also been born without OS. That really wouldn't work. All humans except for one line of them would have OS. :scratch:

3. No, marriage is a holy sacrament. You must also understand that priests have not always been required to be celebate. If the pope decided today that priests could marry, that would be ok. There are other Catholic rites outside of the Roman rite. Priests of other rites are allowed to be married before being ordained.

4. Who knows? There is only one truth, so there is only one real answer, but that doesn't mean that belief systems don't vary a great deal. It would depend on what people believed to be true.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:43 pm 
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And how do you know that it's God talking to the people who teach you what to think and believe? Whether the Church was founded by Christ or on Christ doesn't change the fact that over the last 2000 years, men have decided what you would believe. Not God himself. And as we know, men can be corrupt, wrong, or misled. The same with any church..

And by the way, other religions feel that you are wrong. Other religions claim that God speaks to them and inspires them.

I trust myself before I trust a preacher or priest. You don't know if you're being misled either. You can't even go by your conscience as you just blindly follow what other people tell you.

Some of your ideas are ridiculous, I'm sorry to say. Like worshipping the Virgin Mary. Where is that listed in the Bible. Respect and reverance sure.. But what about the Ten Commandments.. ya know the "having no other Gods before me" thing? And I'm finished with this conversation. Goodbye.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:45 pm 
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rheanna1014 wrote:
And how do you know that it's God talking to the people who teach you what to think and believe? Whether the Church was founded by Christ or on Christ doesn't change the fact that over the last 2000 years, men have decided what you would believe. Not God himself. And as we know, men can be corrupt, wrong, or misled. The same with any church..

And by the way, other religions feel that you are wrong. Other religions claim that God speaks to them and inspires them.

I trust myself before I trust a preacher or priest. You don't know if you're being misled either. You can't even go by your conscience as you just blindly follow what other people tell you.

Some of your ideas are ridiculous, I'm sorry to say. Like worshipping the Virgin Mary. Where is that listed in the Bible. Respect and reverance sure.. But what about the Ten Commandments.. ya know the "having no other Gods before me" thing? And I'm finished with this conversation. Goodbye.


Hmmm didn't take you long to start in with the lies did it...and then conveniently say you are leaving.

Catholics do not worship Mary. We take the 10 Commandments very seriously....do you? Go study up on bearing false witness.

You still have never provided me any Biblical support for your position on the Holy Spirit and your Bible.

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“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


Last edited by St Veronica on Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:46 pm 
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I always understood that Jesus had brothers and sisters?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:47 pm 
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Please explain to me exactly what you believe to be original sin? Is that why you baptize infants?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:48 pm 
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you may not say you worship Mary, but it often seems that way to us lost pathetic souls.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:50 pm 
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Rheanna go ask your questions in the Catholicism 101 forum....that's what it's for.

Stop with the martyr act....you are the only one claiming to be a lost pathetic soul, none of us have said that.

I suppose it never occured to you to actually study what Catholics really believe instead of relying on your assumptions on how things 'seem'.


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“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:53 pm 
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Still no explanation of original sin? I am truly sincerely curious about this issue. Why can't you just tell me here?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:57 pm 
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rheanna1014 wrote:
And how do you know that it's God talking to the people who teach you what to think and believe? Whether the Church was founded by Christ or on Christ doesn't change the fact that over the last 2000 years, men have decided what you would believe. Not God himself. And as we know, men can be corrupt, wrong, or misled. The same with any church..

And by the way, other religions feel that you are wrong. Other religions claim that God speaks to them and inspires them.

I trust myself before I trust a preacher or priest. You don't know if you're being misled either. You can't even go by your conscience as you just blindly follow what other people tell you.

Some of your ideas are ridiculous, I'm sorry to say. Like worshipping the Virgin Mary. Where is that listed in the Bible. Respect and reverance sure.. But what about the Ten Commandments.. ya know the "having no other Gods before me" thing? And I'm finished with this conversation. Goodbye.


Who are you responding to? It helps to quote the person. Click "Quote" paste the message and click "Quote" again, or just click "Quote" above their message.

Nobody here worships Mary. That would make us idolators.

Have a nice life. :wave


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:57 pm 
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I'm off to pray the rosary....your questions are appropriate for the Catholicism 101 forum as opposed to this forum about a book/movie.

If you don't want to re-type them ask a moderator to move your questions into that forum for you.


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“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:59 pm 
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Conveniently avoiding the question. Fine. You have a nice life also in which you follow blindly in what others tell you without thinking for yourself or asking questions.... Good Bye!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:00 pm 
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Curious about why my questions were okay until then? I hit a sore spot I'm assuming.. But won't be sticking around. NOt that important to me.


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