I need to emphasize yet AGAIN that the book does not portray Snape's murder of Dumbledore as a heroic or positive thing. At absolute WORST it views Snape's murder of Dumbledore as a tragic necessity, merely the least bad option.

It is NOT portrayed as 'heroic', it is portrayed as morally problematic and highly questionable, at best morally AMBIGUOUS. NOT HEROIC.

There is a reason why earlier in this thread I referred to this book as 'Harry Potter and the Deconstruction of Albus Dumbledore'

In this book, Dumbledore's reputation as being a morally upright and righteous fellow is severely undermined and perhaps completely eroded. Dumbledore is revealed to be a man who, far from being a shining example of moral integrity, is actually kind of shady and dishonest.

In one scene, Dumbledore's own brother calls him ' man who has built his life on lies' and who is not unwilling to cut a few ethical corners here and there in order to achieve his goals.

The assertion is made, more than once I might add, that Dumbledore is someone who is willing to compromise his moral principles by convincing himself that what he is doing is 'for the greater good'.

Dumbledore's insistence that Snape murder him is viewed in the book as yet another one of those unacceptable moral compromises that Dumbledore made throughout his life. It is just yet another example of the ethical corners that Dumbledore is willing to cut 'for the greater good.'

Let's get this clear, right here, right now: Dumbledore's willingness to cut ethical corners by convincing himself that he has a really, really good reason to do so is portrayed as a character flaw. Not something that we should admire.

In fact, in his last appearance, Dumbledore denies being a 'good' or 'wise' person and asserts that Harry is the better person, because unlike himself, Harry maintains the highest ethical standards, and is never willing to cut ethical corners.

To complain about the 'moral problems' of a section of the book in which it is 100% clear that the WRONG thing was done, is frankly an asinine complaint.

Okay, everyone has had their say on this topic, so lets take it to the pub for any further debate.

I must have been writing my response while you were posting asking the conversation to terminate.

No problem Doom. I assumed that is what happened. I posted the above to preclude any response to you in the thread. If you and DCS want I can merge this conversation to the one in the pub. I told Siggy I would moderate that thread so she didn't have to worry about seeing spoilers there.

I have really said everything I have to say on this topic.

I finished the book this evening. I was troubled by the story of Dumbledore's death, but other than that, I found the book extremely satisfying. I'm not sure if this counts as debate, but I'll take a shot here and say that I completely disagree with the article Sparky posted: it seems to be suggesting that we really need our heros to be deeply flawed characters. I couldn't disagree more. I thought Harry wound up being a great character, and I can't wait for my kids to be old enough to read through this series so we can talk about it for hours and hours and hours.

Back on the non-debate topic ...

For those who have finished the book a few simple and fun questions.

1 - What was your favourite part of the book?

2 - What was the biggest surprise for you?

3 - What part did you think you'd already figured out to find out that you were right?

4 - Biggest disappointment?

My answers:

1 - I was reading it at about midnight and I had to bite my tongue to keep from yelling, "You go, Molly!" when she called Bellatrix Lestrange a b*tch.

2 - I think I was most surprised at the deaths of Tonks, Lupin and Fred. I really thought that she was going to kill someone much closer to Harry.

3 - That Dumbledore had an arrangement with Snape so that when he said, "Please Severus." he was asking Snape to kill him and that the purpose for the arrangement was for Draco Malfoy's sake. I also figured out immediately that R.A.B. was Regulus Black. I thought the "mystery" surrounding that was pointless as it was so obvious.

4 - For me it was that Dobby had to die for Harry to be prodded back into action. I understand it but it still bothered me.

I'm not overly disappointed with the way the story unfolded regarding Dumbledore. But that may be because I began to suspect that Dumbledore wasn't the shining example of heroism in The Order of the Phoenix. It is also because the world is full of people like Dumbledore who act on the principles of "for the greater good" and "the ends justify the means." So it stands to reason that at least one person in Harry's life would consider any sacrifice to be acceptable to defeat Voldemort.

1. Well duh, the last couple of chapters of course! Everything beginning with Harry's entry into Snape's office through to confrontation with Voldemort, his death, descent into the abode of the dead, conversation with Dumbledore and resurrection through to the death of Voldemort was absolute gold. The best ending that could have been hoped for.


2. There weren't any surprises, well maybe that the book was only 759 pages long rather than 1,000 or more. That was kind of surprising I suppose.


3. Just about everything:

Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him

Snape was in love with Lily

Harry himself was the last horcrux

Malfoy would help Harry in the end

Wormtail would repay his debt to Harry


I had it pretty much all figured out two years ago when I read book VI, and, I think, based on the comments that I have seen, so did most readers.

JK Rowling did a really good job of foreshadowing where the story was going, we all knew how it was going to end.


4. Snape died..... I like Snape, he is my favorite character, the one I most closely identify with........

1.) LOVED Molly's fighting Beattrix also, but my FAVORITE was Neville. When they met Neville in the tunnel and he was telling them, in a humble and non-chalant way, about what his year had been like. I just cheerred!

2.) The biggest surprise was Dobby's death... I didn't see it coming at all. And as I've already said, I had to shut the book and cry.

3.) Ditto AND that Snape was in love with Lilly.

4.) Tonks being killed and leaving Teddy an orphan. I was saddened by Fred's death, yes. And I didn't like Lupin's, but see a reason there. But I saw NO point in Tonks' death on top of Lupin's and her fathers.

I was also a little disappointed that she didn't mention what Harry and others did for a living, but she cleared that up in an interview, so I feel a bit better.

Good questions Carole.

My copy is 607 pages long. Is the american edition longer, or is the print just bigger?

I must admit that I was also dissapointed by this. But this is a part of the books that are very good. Rowling shows us what war really is. Of course we were dissapointed or saddened by it. We cared for those characters.

I can't really see why the American version would be longer, so I have to assume that it is the latter.

I don't know that I had one favorite part, but I was very moved by what happened with Neville's character, and in particular with his Grandmother's expression of deep pride in him. (It's about time she got on his side!) Really, the whole chapter where all of our old favorites just kept pouring into the Room of Requirement was sort of a tearjerker for me. (Don't tell anyone. I have my macho image to watch out for.)

I was also very impressed with Harry's plea to Voldemort to repent. With many other evil characters, that's not really ever entertained as a possibility: Aslan never suggests to the White Witch that she repent of her sins, for example. He just kills her. (I'd also mention Sauron here, but I think that's different, since Sauron is an angel, and therefore is much more obviously a demonic character than Voldemort, who is human.)



I think the most surprising episode is the robbery of Gringotts. It was brilliantly written.



Like lots of people, I was positive that Harry was the last horcrux. I was also positive that Harry, Ron and Hermione would all survive, and that Ron and Hermione would get married, and Harry and Ginny would get married. I knew Rowling was too good a storyteller to let anything other than that happen.



The way Rowling handled Dumbledore's death left quite a lot to be desired. He did indeed use language reminiscent of the way assisted suicide is commonly justified. I accept the various defenses of Rowling that Doom and others have offered here: I don't think the book should be read as an apologia for assisted suicide. But I do wish she'd handled that whole thing better. I think that's a point where she was in way over her theological and ethical depth.

Forgot to mention the best part of the influx into the Room of Requirement, which was Percy's arrival. Beautiful.

Yeah. I was glad Percy showed up. I think that perhaps the Longbottoms and the Weasleys suffered far more for their stand against Voldemort than even Harry - so it was really great to have Percy come home (finally) and for Neville's grandmother to finally see Neville.

I hope so. The american ed. of Half-Blood Prince was a little longer than the british.

Really? Are you sure about that? I can't imagine how anything could have been 'cut' from the story and still have it be a coherent tale. There really are no extraneous portions.

I am still bummed out that Harry and Ginny got together--I wanted him to get together with Luna, because she seemed like a much better-developed character, and also, she seemed better for him (I realize this all started way back when... but I am still bummed about it!!!!)

Anyway, wow. I read the entire book aloud to my children to end the argument of who was going to read it first. Now I can finally read and respond in this thread

I figured that Dumbledore had an arrangement with Snape to kill him so as to save Malfoy's soul (that seemed clear to me??), and I am not really bothered by the assisted suicide angle, because it wasn't like Dumbledore was trying to avoid any pain or difficulty--he also sacrificed himself by drinking the potion in the lake. Malfoy was being forced to kill Dumbledore because Voldemort was holding his father hostage.

I was wrong about Dumbledore's returning because he was a phoenix animagus, but he did show up

And I liked the way that even tho Dumbledore was kind of a "bad guy" in his youth, he repented and became aware enough to avoid occasions of sin.

The main surprise was that Hagrid was alive after disappearing into the group of spiders.

And I was really sad about Dobby, really happy about Neville , and sorry about Lupin, whom I really liked.

But Ginny????? How could he choose her???? Argh!!!!!

Harry and Ginny never struck me as a good couple, but Ron and Hermione are a natural match.

For my own part, I think it would have been more realistic if each of them ended up with someone we never heard of, because really, how many people marry their high school sweetheart? Almost nobody.

The american ed. of Half-Blood Prince had some lines from Dumbledore that is not in the british ed. For instance, I believe Dumbledore said "They cannot kill you if you are already dead" or something. This is not in the british ed. But this does not make 150 pages.