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 Post subject: A few little questions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:15 pm 
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1. Why are relics on the altar veiled or removed for adoration and benediction of the Blessed Sacrament?

2. In the EF, why does the subdeacon wear a humeral veil for part of a solemn Mass? I think he puts it on at the offertory and wear it to or through Communion.

3. In the EF, why on All Souls Day does the server not kiss the hand of the priest? Does he kiss the object but not the hand, or does he kiss neither?


Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:19 pm 
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1) Jesus is more important.
2) Because.
3) He doesn't do this at funerals either. Because, just like other things that are different at Requiem Masses (such as not blessing the water) for no reason that is particularly evident.

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:25 pm 
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3) Oh, the water, I meant to ask about that one, too. :) But OK. Not everything has a reason. I should know that by now.

The server kept reflexively moving like he was going to kiss the hand of the priest before stopping himself. It must be so automatic for him, since he serves Mass a few days a week. :)

1) Yeah, that's what I was thinking, but they are kept exposed during Mass, and Jesus is more important then, too. Does that have to do with the fact that the saints, through the relics, sort of play a role during Mass? (I think I probably phrased that really incorrectly.)

Thanks, Father!

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"Take it as a certain sign that your charity is not genuine if your words, no matter how true, are not charitable." --St Francis de Sales

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:47 pm 
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2 - He wears the humeral veil because he is holding the paten and he is not allowed to touch the paten with his unconsecrated hands.

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:49 pm 
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Pepsuber wrote:
2 - He wears the humeral veil because he is holding the paten and he is not allowed to touch the paten with his unconsecrated hands.

When it's not a solemn high Mass, doesn't the server hold the paten with his bare hands?

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:51 pm 
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Dominicatella wrote:
Pepsuber wrote:
2 - He wears the humeral veil because he is holding the paten and he is not allowed to touch the paten with his unconsecrated hands.

When it's not a solemn high Mass, doesn't the server hold the paten with his bare hands?

No ... do you mean during Holy Communion? That's a different item.

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:56 pm 
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Pepsuber wrote:
Dominicatella wrote:
Pepsuber wrote:
2 - He wears the humeral veil because he is holding the paten and he is not allowed to touch the paten with his unconsecrated hands.

When it's not a solemn high Mass, doesn't the server hold the paten with his bare hands?

No ... do you mean during Holy Communion? That's a different item.

Oh, yeah, that's what I meant. What's the paten that the subdeacon holds? Is it the plate with the priest's Host on it or something? I can't see what happens up there at the altar. :)

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:02 pm 
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Dominicatella wrote:
What's the paten that the subdeacon holds? Is it the plate with the priest's Host on it or something?

Yes, exactly.

Quote:
I can't see what happens up there at the altar. :)

You should visit our little chapel sometime. Easy to see everything so long as you're sitting in the nave.

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:07 pm 
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Oh, really? Maybe I'll check it out if I ever find myself in your area. :)

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:07 pm 
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What does the subdeacon do with the paten? Why does he have to hold it?

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"Take it as a certain sign that your charity is not genuine if your words, no matter how true, are not charitable." --St Francis de Sales

"The thing is--to be ready to die: and is there one of us who would quite like to die, doing as little for God as we are doing now?" --Fr Faber


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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:06 pm 
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Dominicatella wrote:
2. In the EF, why does the subdeacon wear a humeral veil for part of a solemn Mass? I think he puts it on at the offertory and wear it to or through Communion.

A look at the 1st Roman ordo helps here. The bread sectioned off for the Eucharist is kept on the paten, which was quite large back then. The humeral veil developed precisely to cover the offering before its presentation to the priest. The subdeacon would hold it in wait. The use for Benediction, etc was later and adapted from this. Further, the paten has a gigantic importance in most rites. The Dominicans use it at times for the kiss of peace, the Nobertines holding it up during the Pater Noster, etc. It comes to represent to oblations and hence is handled with a veil

And yes EVERYTHING has a reason, at least historically

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:09 pm 
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Which does not mean that anyone remembers what the reason was, nor that some of the reasons proffered are after-the-fact explanations.

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:11 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
3) He doesn't do this at funerals either. Because, just like other things that are different at Requiem Masses (such as not blessing the water) for no reason that is particularly evident.

Three reasons. One historical, two by fittingness

1. Historically requiem and penitential Masses tend to be more traditional. One notes, for instance, that incensation was done originally at the offertory and not at the beginning of Mass (Durandus decries incensing at the beginning as a novelty). The ancient practice is retained in requiem Masses and Holy Week of not incensing at the beginning. Likewise the multiplication of "kisses of politeness" was a later development. Another sign of this is that prior to 1962 the fold chasuble was worn in requiem Masses and many (not all) Masses in violet, rather than the dalmatic and tunicle which were later developments (all ministers wore the chasuble originally). Further the dalmatic and tunicle were garments of joy. In the Dominican rite a deacon simply omits the dalmatic and hence looks much like a modern deacon at most parishes. The same reason holds for the blessing of the water

2. The Kiss of peace is omitted due to grieving and hence it is inappropriate to exchange mere kisses of politeness when it is omitted

3. Again, kissing in general is a sign of joy and so is omitted

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:17 pm 
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Interesting. Thanks, PED.

What is different for what happens with the paten in a solemn Mass versus another Mass? Does the server handle the paten in a non-solemn high Mass?

Why isn't there a final blessing in the requiem Mass? I guess I can sort of see why the Iudica me is skipped, since it's not as in line with the rest of the Mass, but I'm confused by why there's no final blessing. Is that the case in the Ordinary Form, as well?

I love the liturgy, though. We had a requiem Mass today, too. Maybe you did as well.

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Quid retribuam Domino pro omnibus quæ retribuit mihi?

"Take it as a certain sign that your charity is not genuine if your words, no matter how true, are not charitable." --St Francis de Sales

"The thing is--to be ready to die: and is there one of us who would quite like to die, doing as little for God as we are doing now?" --Fr Faber


Last edited by Dominicatella on Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:19 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Which does not mean that anyone remembers what the reason was, nor that some of the reasons proffered are after-the-fact explanations.
I can see how this could be the case. But I love to hear the reasons when they are known. It's interesting (not to mention, at times, enriching). :)

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"Take it as a certain sign that your charity is not genuine if your words, no matter how true, are not charitable." --St Francis de Sales

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:28 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Which does not mean that anyone remembers what the reason was, nor that some of the reasons proffered are after-the-fact explanations.

True, but very often they can be discovered with enough research, at least with these peculiarities...it helps and hurts that the middle ages so no uniformity in practice. On one hand when a practice was introduced or even became a rubric can be somewhat determined by comparison, at other times it becomes more confusing

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:31 pm 
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Dominicatella wrote:
Interesting. Thanks, PED.

What is different for what happens with the paten in a solemn Mass versus another Mass? Does the server handle the paten in a non-solemn high Mass?

The paten is tucked under the corporal during the whole time where the subdeacon would be handling it. The priest slides the Host onto the corporal and then tucks the paten under
Quote:
Why isn't there a final blessing in the requiem Mass? I guess I can sort of see why the Iudica me is skipped, since it's not as in line with the rest of the Mass, but I'm confused by why there's no final blessing. Is that the case in the Ordinary Form, as well?

I love the liturgy, though. We had a requiem Mass today, too. Maybe you did as well.

Again the blessing was a fairly late development. Considering that also the sermon is given after the last Gospel, before the absolution, it would seem awkward to retain the blessing there too (in a low requiem Mass without the absolution I think its absence is more noted, but in a funeral Mass, or a sung Mass on All Souls the absolution follows and the sermon is right before that...or at least it should be iirc)

IN the OF the blessing is giving and Ite Missa est is said

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:55 pm 
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The sermon in our sung Mass on All Souls was at the normal time after the Gospel, FWIW. The Absolution just followed the Last Gospel.

You're right that the lack of the blessing was most notable in the low Masses, except for the low Mass that was followed directly by another low Mass (because then it just blends together). I just feel this insatiable need to cross myself at the end of Mass! (Same with the other day when a visiting priest gave the sermon. He began the sermon with the Sign of the Cross but neglected the concluding SotC.... Oh, how I wanted to cross myself. But I resisted. :))

Thanks, PED, as always. :)

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:41 am 
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Dominicatella wrote:
The sermon in our sung Mass on All Souls was at the normal time after the Gospel, FWIW. The Absolution just followed the Last Gospel.

Of all people I expected the Institute to get that right. In a requiem Mass the sermon is immediately before the Absolution. I am not too surprised but still. The priest who have the sermon at the funeral Mass for the first chaplain from my college, mentioned that he did not a know that the sermon came there or that the funeral Mass for a priest was the first Mass from All Souls day and not the regular funeral Mass (and he was SSPX*!...I knew those things from just glancing at the Missal). I mean with the SSPX I expect rubrical incompetence to some degree, but not with the Institute. Unless it differs with funeral versus All Souls.

*The priest who died was not SSPX. The reason the SSPX did the funeral is rather complicated. The priest was always in good standing and the Nobertines, many whom he taught, celebrated a solemn Requiem Mass for him on the same day...only TAC snubbed him sadly due to 30+ year old bitterness.

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 Post subject: Re: A few little questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:05 am 
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Did you go to a high Mass on All Souls? Did your priest give the sermon directly before the Absolution? eta - Oh, I guess your priest didn't go to the Institute seminary, anyway, right?

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