L,

I will if you want me to, but I feel it is pertanent to the discussion. I feel it it true in a way, but not in the way it was ment. Christ's sacrifice did end the atonement of sins with shedding of blood for appeasement of Gods wrath. The old way became obsolete. The sacrifice it did not end to me is our sacrifice of ourselves, weather that is to family, community, or God with our lives. In that sense, IMO, sacrifices did not end, but we sacrifice ourselves in order to share in his. That is how I differ with other denominations on this. They state that faith only gives redemption. I say if all you do is believe, but do nothing, you are worse than an unbeliver. Talk is cheap to God. If you believe Christ died for you, but only do things for yourself, and do not "carry your cross" (sacrifice your time, talent, and treasure, and very self), you have no real part in his. so in a way, he is right, sacrifices didn't end, his did,but ours just began.

By the way L, also, if you are a Christian,and you are lucky enough, and somehow it comes to be that sharing the Gospel has cost you your life and your blood is shed, that would be a real sharing in sacrifice from us. Like I said his sacrifice was total atonement of our sins, but our sacrifice had just began.

Oh ok, no problem I just didn't know who you were talking about or how they would be a good source to ask about doctrine. As I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if you find Catholics who may not be aware of some basic catholic beliefs anymore than I am not surprised when I find Evangelicals who don't know basic parts of the bible. People don't always know what they should. I am constantly trying to learn more about the faith.


Well again, they may be thinking you are saying that miraculously the priest is actually transformed into Christ Himself, and that would not be correct. I've always found it is best to stick with what the Church actually says She believes, word for word, rather than editorialising what we think the Church is saying. I gave you two good links and a biblical reference for the meaning of in persona Christi. The priest does not become Christ, but through the authority he receives in Holy Orders, he acts sacramentally as someone who speaks and acts for Christ. So when you said to your friend that a priest was, "Not acting under the authority of Christ as his minister", that was incorrect. That is exactly what a priest is acting as in persona Christi in that he possesses the authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself, to be His vicar, representative, place-holder, etc. It is the very reason why the priesthood is ministerial, i.e., to be Christ's minister.

Luke 10:16 "He that hears you hears me;"

Thanks mike. I will leave it between you and the mods as to whether it should be deleted. I believe I have heard Scott Hahn present
this on EWTN several times - but if Fr Horton is of the opinion that it misses the mark in any way, then I am not comfortable
with having posted it here.

L.

As I said, it's not wrong, but it can be misleading and I don't think it's helping the discussion here.

I prefer to go with your opinion, and if mike will push the reset button on this and delete,
I would be happy for the quote to go away from his post as well.

L.

I am Christian, I am Catholic.

L.

I believe the problem might stem from a misunderstanding of what the word sacrifice in the sacrifice of Calvary actually refers to. AFAIK, it does not refer to the sacrificial act as such (ie. the crucifixion, even though this is very important), but the sacrificed object (ie. Christ).

In the same way, AFAIK, when we talk about sacrifices in the Old Testament, for example the lamb on Yom Kippur, the sacrifice per se is not the slaughtering of the animal, but the animal itself (or its blood). Therefore we also need to include all that is done, and not just the slaughtering. Just as the lamb on Yom Kippur not only needed to be slaughtered, but also needed to be presented (by virtue of its blood) in the Holy of Holies, so Christ's sacrifice (being himself) includes not only Calvary, but his everlasting presentation of said sacrifice in heaven, cf. Hebrews 7; 8:1-3. In the Mass one participates in that.

Not to be a party pooper, or anything, but I don't think this is an accurate translation. The word translated 'person' is πρόσωπον (prósōpon). It is true that this can be translated person, but AFAIK, that is a much later development, partly due to Christian theology needing to produce new vocabulary. Πρόσωπον is more accurately translated 'face' or 'presence.' (I believe it was used to denote the masks at theaters, just like persona in latin.)

A more accurate translation would be this: "But to any one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for if I forgave anything, for your sakes I forgave it in the presence of Christ."

I find this passage of Dr. Hahn's very troubling. While the animal sacrifices of the old Covenant were certainly "ineffective" compared with the sacrifice of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they clearly did something. For example, God had favor on Abel's offering (the sacrifice of one of his flock), but not on Cain's.

I don't think that's correct.

A Systematic Study of the Catholic Religion, #253. (Italics in original.)

Heb. 9:13 For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh,

nm

I am not a priest, but I can quote a priest, Father Garrigou Lagrange, from his book, "Our Savior and His Love for Us."

"The Mass is a sacramental sacrifice substantially perpetuating in an unbloody manner the sacrifice of the Cross..."

"As the Council of Trent explains, the Sacrifice of the Mass is in substance the same as that of the Cross, because it is the same victim, really present on our alters, that is offered up and because it is offered up by te same principal priest."

"The Mass is therefore a real sacrifice, but an unbloody one. It is not merely a symbolic sacrifice or the simple re-enactment of a past sacrifice, for the victim is really present and not merely the image of this victim. There is also the real oblation of the victim and not merely a symbol of this oblation. But in this ubloody sacrifice, the real and bloody immolation of Calvary is merely symbolized and commemorated, and its fruits are applied to us. As the theologians say: the Mass is a true, unbloody sacrifice which represents the bloody immolation of the sacrifice of the Cross."

"After His resurrection and ascension, or Savior, who is a priest forever, did not cease to exercise the principal act of His priesthood, and He does this especially through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass."

"It is certain that the glorious Christ does not cease to love us, to adore His Father and give thanks and offer Himself up to Him. This interior act of oblation, ever alive in His heart, is the soul of the Sacrifice of the Mass."

The bold lettering is mine. I just wanted to emphasize those points. The main point is that the Sacrifice of the Mass is IN SUBSTANCE the same as that on Calvary. This latter quote by this priest was the best clarification, I thought. Alot of this is still a great mystery to me, but these words from this priest clarified alot for me, that's why I wanted to share it with you and whoever else...

Thank you for your input. I have a very confusing issue here. I cannot reconcile all of the things I have learned about the church lately, so I have decided to attend, but not to participate in these things. I devote myself to social ministry, which is outreach, to please God. That is where he is leading me. I read in the bible that more important to God is feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and in prison etc. and making myself humble before God and man. Sacrifice and insense and rituals pale in comparison to compassion for your neighbor. Easier some days than others.

I have been abused both physically and emotionally by others in my life, and it cast doubt on any institution ran by men, who are sinful in nature and imperfect. I do not choose this mindset. For whatever reason it is what God has given me. I have many reasons to stomp away and live my spiritual life outside the church, but one thing I cannot reconcile-If I think myself better and less mistaken than the leaders in our church, enough to leave, then I will be measured with the rod of perfection at Judgement, and I have many faults myself. I also know that God can do anything, and I pray, and beg fervantly, for God to come and straighen all of mankinds faults, including our churches. Peace be with you and yours, and I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving-Mark

One thing I will say-The truth that is presented to me in scripture and by the holy spirit is this-God, Jesus, and the spirit are separate, but one (duh). Everything is in, with, and through Jesus. In John 1:1, it states that the word was with God in the beginning, the same "in the beginning" that is the beginning of the bible in Genisis. So, he, and his Father, are from forever to forever. Alpha and Omega. They have no beginning and no end. They are.

Now, strangely enough, men are trying to define Jesus and God now. They are attempting to scientifically explain him and discover him. Much like the tower of Babel. They got together and built the tower of Babel to reach up to heaven, and God put an end to it. Now, men are at it again, this time with a particle accelerator. They have gathered the nations, and together built the CERN complex. 500 billion is what I believe they collectively spent. They are trying to discover "the God particle". They are trying to explain why everything is held together. They know many mind blowing properties and laws of Physics, and much , much more, but what they cannot explain is the basic fact that something must bind things together. Why does a nucleus have positive and negative charges and not come apart? They postulize a "God particle" that must be the force that accomplishes this. That, to me, is Jesus. Jesus is everything. He is the force in the universe, everything is created and exist through him. He is you, me, everything you see, touch,hear, feel, and the things that you can't percieve or comprehend. He is good and holy, but Satan infected this perfection with evil, and he will be destroyed, and we will once again be holy and undefiled. To me, that is what he ment "this is my body, this is my blood". He was actually stating that he is everything, which is true. The water there was unfit to drink, and if there wasn't any rain there wasn't any wheat or wine, and you starved to death and died physically. Without him, you die spiritually, he is everything. His sacrifice was a lethal one time mortal blow to satan, and he reconciled us who believe in him. We who believe and love him do what he commands, and that is to love each other, Catholic or not, and obey the commandments. After he comes, we will find everything out from him, and we will fully understand, and I am living for that moment...... Peace

God Particle: Existence to be Confirmed by 2012
By Simon Saavedra | Christian Post Correspondent
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Physicists directing research through the Large Hadron Collider at CERN (European Organization for Nuclear Research) have announced that the existence of the sub-atomic "God particle" will be decided by the end of 2012.

(Photo: Reuters/Denis Balibouse)
A scientist holds a glass of champagne after the first successful collisions at full power at the Compact Muon Solenoid (CMS) experience control room at the Large European Organisation for Nuclear Research (CERN) in Meyrin, near Geneva, March 30, 2010.
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TechnologyFor many years, scientists have speculated the existence of the particle, also called the Higgs boson particle, but have not been able to provide any proof to corroborate the fact.

However, at the International Europhysics Conference on High-Energy Physics in Grenoble, France, this past weekend, researchers presented some curious data bleeps that could hint the existence of such a particle.

So far, the physicists stated that after conducting particle-smashing tests in the LHC, reaching speeds up to 99.99 percent of the speed of light, they were only able to determine the location the particle was not found, adding that with more tests and more data they would be able to determine whether the particle exists within 18 months.

If the particle was found to exist, then it would explain how all matter, including creatures, in the universe have come to have mass. Additionally, it would complete the puzzle

Because Jesus was God and man, the sacrifice He made during the original crucifixion to the Father has attributes that exists outside of space and time. It is an eternal sacrifice. At Mass we make a connection with that sacrifice and apply it to ourselves according to our individual dispositions. In other words, the people that were actually present at the crucifixion of Jesus 2000 years ago, had no advantage over people living today!