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 Post subject: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:57 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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I was invited to attend Mass with a friend at her parish in the city. She informed me that, since most of the members were black, the flavor of the Mass would reflect that. Of course, the choir was very talented, and sounded like those you'd find in a Baptist church. The Mass itself resembled a Baptist service with a Mass format.

I don't even know if I attended a valid Mass today. I doubt that the Eucharist was validly consecrated. I know enough to be able to say that there was clear liturgical abuse. I'd love some input from Fr. Kenobi.

There were several women, and two men, dressed in what looked like deacon's garb. Actually, the men may have been actual deacons, but I don't know. They "took care of" most of the Mass. The priest said the homily, and some of the words of consecration. Some. :(

These women facilitated the liturgy of the Eucharist. They said most of the prayers. I thought my eyes were going to pop out of my head. They prepared the vessels. They said the silent prayers over the vessels and elements. Then one of the women started in with, "Pray, brethren, that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable..." And the ball kept rolling. The priest stood there among these women, as they said most of the words and prayers, with him chiming in. IIRC, he was the one who called upon the Holy Spirit to come down upon the gifts. I honestly was losing focus at this point.

The women held up the (consecrated?) hosts and said, "Through Him, with Him, in Him..." The priest was a minor player in all of this.

I did not go up for Communion.

And we didn't even say the Creed, either, btw.

Should I write a letter to the Archbishop here in Detroit? If so, how should I go about it, and should anyone be copied on it? I can't believe that this abuse is a secret. Someone has to know that this is going on. And with all the parish closings going on all over this archdiocese, why on earth should this parish be allowed to keep its doors open, and perpetuate this abuse, while orthodox parishes are being closed?

I'm still stunned.

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:11 pm 
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MySweetLord wrote:
The women held up the (consecrated?) hosts and said, "Through Him, with Him, in Him..." The priest was a minor player in all of this.

:shock: They held up the Host? Because (IIRC) even a deacon only holds up the Chalice at this point. If what you relate is true, then these women were praying those parts of the Mass that belong to the priest.

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:29 pm 
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I would hesitate to decide whether or not it was valid; it should not have been happening no matter what. I would not attend again. You can write to the Archdiocese. If you do, bear in mind Fr. Z's tips for writing to bishops. You don't have objective evidence (pictures, handouts, etc.) but do the rest of what he says.

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:45 pm 
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It wouldn't hurt to go back for objective evidence and send the pictures to the Archbishop with the letter. Validity is difficult to determine. I would think it would depend on whether the priest actually prayed the Eucharistic prayer. I don't think just part of it counts, especially if he didn't intend to say the whole thing. It's different than when a priest simply messes up.

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
It wouldn't hurt to go back for objective evidence and send the pictures to the Archbishop with the letter. Validity is difficult to determine. I would think it would depend on whether the priest actually prayed the Eucharistic prayer. I don't think just part of it counts, especially if he didn't intend to say the whole thing. It's different than when a priest simply messes up.

It depends on whether or not he said the Words of Institution.

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:48 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You can write to the Archdiocese. If you do, bear in mind Fr. Z's tips for writing to bishops. You don't have objective evidence (pictures, handouts, etc.) but do the rest of what he says.


I would do exactly this. If what the OP is describing is accurate, it goes far beyond liturgical abuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:37 pm 
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I'm really biting my lip on this one...

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Mmmmmmmmmmm ... lip.

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:41 pm 
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Bagheera wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
It wouldn't hurt to go back for objective evidence and send the pictures to the Archbishop with the letter. Validity is difficult to determine. I would think it would depend on whether the priest actually prayed the Eucharistic prayer. I don't think just part of it counts, especially if he didn't intend to say the whole thing. It's different than when a priest simply messes up.

It depends on whether or not he said the Words of Institution.

I believe some theologians will argue that the words alone are insufficient if they aren't situated in what is a clear attempt to celebrate Mass according to a permitted rite of the Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:50 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Bagheera wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
It wouldn't hurt to go back for objective evidence and send the pictures to the Archbishop with the letter. Validity is difficult to determine. I would think it would depend on whether the priest actually prayed the Eucharistic prayer. I don't think just part of it counts, especially if he didn't intend to say the whole thing. It's different than when a priest simply messes up.

It depends on whether or not he said the Words of Institution.

I believe some theologians will argue that the words alone are insufficient if they aren't situated in what is a clear attempt to celebrate Mass according to a permitted rite of the Church.

Right, because such would manifest (or so the argument goes) contrary intention....

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:44 am 
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Can I suggest everyone just take a moment and offer a Rosary for this situation...

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:28 am 
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If this did indeed occur within the Detroit Archdiocese then I would suggest that they should concentrate on internal liturgical matters instead of the cyber world...

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:32 am 
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Jakub wrote:
If this did indeed occur within the Detroit Archdiocese then I would suggest that they should concentrate on internal liturgical matters instead of the cyber world...


took the words out of my mouth..

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Therefore, if God wills that we be struck down by some affliction, take it as
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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:37 am 
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Jakub wrote:
If this did indeed occur within the Detroit Archdiocese then I would suggest that they should concentrate on internal liturgical matters instead of the cyber world...

That's a very good observation. I didn't notice that. That parish probably has as many parishioners as the other guy does viewers.

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:40 am 
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Cubano wrote:
Jakub wrote:
If this did indeed occur within the Detroit Archdiocese then I would suggest that they should concentrate on internal liturgical matters instead of the cyber world...


took the words out of my mouth..


:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:59 am 
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Jakub wrote:
If this did indeed occur within the Detroit Archdiocese then I would suggest that they should concentrate on internal liturgical matters instead of the cyber world...


it came from an eye witness to the liturgy... do you doubt what she saw?

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:00 pm 
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I can't help but think of a verse of scripture when I read of such things:

Quote:
Ecclesiates 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.


In other words, this will keep going on as long as there are no consequences.


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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Not to sound goofy, but do you think it would be advisable to get video evidence prior to contacting the archdiocese? Or would a letter be enough?

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:38 pm 
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I'm so shocked by this MSL. It makes me really sad. When I read your title, i thought about when I went to a wedding at a carmelite monastery in Baltimore and the nuns were wearing white garments that made it look like they were trying be considered clergy. They sat in the sanctuary during Mass, too. But your post went WAY beyond that experience!

I wonder how they would react to you filming/taking pictures.

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 Post subject: Re: Women "Priests" at Mass Today
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Benedetta wrote:
I'm so shocked by this MSL. It makes me really sad. When I read your title, i thought about when I went to a wedding at a carmelite monastery in Baltimore and the nuns were wearing white garments that made it look like they were trying be considered clergy. They sat in the sanctuary during Mass, too. But your post went WAY beyond that experience!

I wonder how they would react to you filming/taking pictures.

It wouldn't be filmed with their knowledge, IYKWIM. There are ways of going about it. Honestly, though, my biggest "problem" would be trying to do it without my friend's knowledge. I believe that would put a serious strain on a long and wonderful relationship. She loves that parish. She had been away from the Mass for a few years, and this place brings her a sense of peace. She is truly unaware of how far the abuse went. When I leaned over and asked a rhetorical question about "didn't we just skip something?" she said she didn't know, and that she was certain that I would know better than she does.

I didn't think it was an appropriate setting after Mass, over lunch with her and her parish friends, to go over the abuses. I was willing to weigh in on it if I was asked, but I wasn't. I intend to talk with her about it privately.

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