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 Post subject: Praying the words of the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:01 am 
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Master
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Once in a while at Mass I find myself next to a person who whispers the words that are reserved to the priest at Mass, such as the Eucharistic Prayer or even the words of consecration. It irks me, but more importantly, is this actually illicit, or encouraged?

I read that Pope St Pius X said:
Quote:
The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. Is is the Sacrifice dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear the Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart, and mouth all that happens at the Altar.

Further, you must pray with the priest the holy words said by him in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens on the Altar. When acting in this way, you have prayed Holy Mass.


I was once told that whispering or saying the words that are reserved to the priest is illicit, so now I'm confused. Did St Pius X mean we pray with the priest quietly in our hearts?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:10 am 
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Praying does not equal saying, does it?

The words after the bolded section seem to clear it up

"You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens on the Altar. When acting in this way, you have prayed Holy Mass."

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:25 am 
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I have to say that I think that I have heard it was wrong to say the prayer that the preist was saying during the consecration, but I think that I was told that it was because it was a time for quiet adn reverence. But, I have to say that every now and again I catch myself mouthing the words and maybe possibly whispering them once in a great while too. I stop though and I don't mean any disrespect by it. I think that it can happen at times when I am really moved.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:54 am 
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PED,

It's the following with eye, heart and mouth part that sort of made me wonder. Thanks for making it clear for me.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:14 pm 
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Greetings,

All my life I prayed the mass by mouthing along with the priest. IT was the ONLY way I could pay attention and stayed focused. I don't believe I ever was audible. As long as they don't do this as a type of concelebration, or are not audible to disturb others, I don't see a problem.

peace

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:59 pm 
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How can prayer ever be illicit?? I follow the Mass in my missal, always have, so is the reading and contemplation of the words any different than whispering them?? If so, the missal is an occasion for sin!!! I don't think so.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:13 pm 
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tryinghard wrote:
How can prayer ever be illicit?? I follow the Mass in my missal, always have, so is the reading and contemplation of the words any different than whispering them?? If so, the missal is an occasion for sin!!! I don't think so.


There is a reason the Church forbade hand missals until the 19th century (the Roman Canon, which was said silently by the priest until 1967 was not allowed to be printed for a good while)

How can prayer to God be illicit? When it is a prayer that calls for an ordained priest*. To meditate on the Canon and Sacrifice and even to unite with it in the priesthood of the laity is not only licit but what you should be doing,

The problem is when people blur the lines between the ordained priest and the laity, think they somehow have the power to consecrate, etc. The Church forbids the laity to say the Canon with the priest, including the per ipsum (Through Him, with Him, etc) for this reason. But the law is intended against the congregation usurping the parts of the priest. I do not think mouthing the words, provided one knows they aren't "concelebrating" is what is intended when these parts are forbidden to the laity.

*The prayer for absolution "ego te absolvo a peccata tuis in nomine patris et filii et spiritus sancti" is a good example. These words effect absolution when said by a priest. If I were to say them over a penitent it would only effect my automatic excommunication from the Church for impersonating a priest

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:44 pm 
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I didn't get anything about usurping the powers of the priest or consecrating a host in the initial post. It sounded like a situation where an an overly aggressive catechism instruction put an erroneous fear in a lay person. It's hard enough to be a Catholic without overextending the guilt.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:04 pm 
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tryinghard wrote:
I didn't get anything about usurping the powers of the priest or consecrating a host in the initial post. It sounded like a situation where an an overly aggressive catechism instruction put an erroneous fear in a lay person. It's hard enough to be a Catholic without overextending the guilt.


Do you realise there is a difference between saying the words to oneself and saying them aloud? It isn't overextending "guilt"

Lex credendi, lex orandi. The law of believing is the law of praying and vice-versa

It would be gravely wrong for the congregation to say aloud the words with the priest or to say them quietly even if they were doing so thinking they were consecrating (which, is a common error!)

My point was that the Church does indeed forbid saying these words with the priest. But the law should be interpreted as against what I have described above, not as against saying them to oneself.

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