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 Post subject: Latin translation "active" or "actual" participation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:04 am 
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Paladin
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Currently, as no one here knows until now, I am studying religion (can't call it theology because they call it "Religious Studies") at a local Catholic University.

Already and with the fullest expectations I have run into the modern gobbledygook contained in the material I am reading with such wonderful expressions as "life-giving synergies” all the while quoting Rahner and Schillebeeckx – those wonderful bastions of Orthodoxy.

In class today we were talking about participation in the liturgy and the book (which gave decent treatment to the subject) and the professor used the common translation of Vatican II which renders it “active participation.” I asked him if a more accurate translation would be “actual participation” (because this is what I have read) to which he responded that it was debatable and it seemed he was implying that “active” would be the preferred translation.

So, not knowing Latin I would like to ask those who do what they think:

Quare ad universum Corpus Ecclesiae pertinent illudque manifestant et afficiunt; singula vero membra ipsius diverso modo, pro diversitate ordinum, munerum et actualis participationis, attingunt.


I have read the proper translation is “actual.” Is that true? Or is “active” more accurate? And if someone can confirm one or the other could you please tell me why that is? Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation "active" or "actual" participation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:33 am 
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The Exterminator
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The google translation:
Quote:

Should be made to the whole body of the Church, making it known and influencing it the individual members of the Church in a different manner, for the diversity of orders, role and actual participation, attain it.


The Vatican translation:
Quote:
Therefore liturgical services pertain to the whole body of the Church; they manifest it and have effects upon it; but they concern the individual members of the Church in different ways, according to their differing rank, office, and actual participation.


I think this demonstrates that the use of the term "actual" is preferred by the Church. Also it shows the limitations of google's translator.

This was from the vatican website. I compared the Latin and English to determine exactly where the phrase appears in the document and it is between 26 and 27.

Latin original:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... um_lt.html

English translation:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... um_en.html

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation "active" or "actual" participation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:20 pm 
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Paladin
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Actually I goofed up.

It appears the portion you quoted is translated "actual" but as you can see when section 2 of chapter I begins it says "active."
Thanks for pointing this out because for some reason before I did not see this.


Quote:
II. The Promotion of Liturgical Instruction and Active Participation

14. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. Such participation by the Christian people as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people (1 Pet. 2:9; cf. 2:4-5), is their right and duty by reason of their baptism.



So my main concern was over this part and beyond where they keep using "active."

I was wondering if there was some kind of grammar or usage of words in chapter II that would render the translation as "active."

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"The proof of love is to suffer for the one you love." -St. Pio
"Start by doing what's necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible." -St. Francis of Assisi
"We need neither progressives nor reactionary conservatives, only Catholic Traditionalists" - Ryan Grant


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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation "active" or "actual" participation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:34 pm 
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ADL, I looked up Latin for "active" in that Vatican II document you just quoted in the last response. The Latin words are ACTUOSA PARTICIPATIONE in Paragraph 14. But Paragraph 58 uses ACTUALIS PARTICIPATIONIS.

These words are not the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation "active" or "actual" participation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:24 pm 
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Paladin
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lbt wrote:
ADL, I looked up Latin for "active" in that Vatican II document you just quoted in the last response. The Latin words are ACTUOSA PARTICIPATIONE in Paragraph 14. But Paragraph 58 uses ACTUALIS PARTICIPATIONIS.

These words are not the same.


I see... thanks.

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"The proof of love is to suffer for the one you love." -St. Pio
"Start by doing what's necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible." -St. Francis of Assisi
"We need neither progressives nor reactionary conservatives, only Catholic Traditionalists" - Ryan Grant


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