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 Post subject: Translate this .. from motu proprio Stella Maris
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:07 pm 
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II. § 1. Hoc in documento accipiuntur nomine:
a) navigantium, ii qui in navibus mercaturae ratione vel piscatus reperiuntur, atque etiam qui quamlibet ob rationem iter maritimum susceperunt.


this is partially translated in the english document as: ...""..and all who for whatever reason have undertaken a voyage by ship..."

I contend that this does NOT have an exclusively 'past tense' sense to it, but rather, a 'current tense' sense... as in, "I have undertaken this voyage to find gold!" ...

What say the collective brain trust?


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 Post subject: Re: Translate this .. from motu proprio Stella Maris
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:12 pm 
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I agree with gherkin tAnGo.

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 Post subject: Re: Translate this .. from motu proprio Stella Maris
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:16 am 
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it's present perfect tense, is it not? (at least the english is... I just don't know how to do latin verbs)

or at least ... is it fair to say that this "have undertaken" part in latin is NOT in the (simple) past tense?


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 Post subject: Re: Translate this .. from motu proprio Stella Maris
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:22 am 
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tAnGo wrote:
it's present perfect tense, is it not? (at least the english is... I just don't know how to do latin verbs)

or at least ... is it fair to say that this "have undertaken" part in latin is NOT in the (simple) past tense?


It's in perfect tense. The perfect tense in Latin might be translated in two ways: the past simple ("I did") or the present completed ("I have done").

Principal parts of suscipio (third conjugation of verbs ending with "io"):

suscipio
suscipere
suscepi
susceptus

The perfect tense is formed by using the third principal part with "i" dropped. Then add:

1st person, single: -i
2nd person, single: -isti
3rd person, single: -it

1st person, plural: -imus
2nd person, plural: -istis
3rd person, plural: -erunt (or -ere)

Thus, the perfect tense for third person plural can be either "susceperunt" or "suscepere".

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 Post subject: Re: Translate this .. from motu proprio Stella Maris
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:43 am 
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what dictates whether it should be -erunt or -ere?


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 Post subject: Re: Translate this .. from motu proprio Stella Maris
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:43 am 
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oh.. and another question...

atque etiam qui quamlibet ob rationem iter maritimum susceperunt.

... how does this translate, literally?

The english document renders that as "and all who for whatever reason have undertaken a voyage by ship"

How accurate is the english?


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 Post subject: Re: Translate this .. from motu proprio Stella Maris
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:26 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
what dictates whether it should be -erunt or -ere?


I believe -ere is an alternate of -erunt.

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 Post subject: Re: Translate this .. from motu proprio Stella Maris
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:35 pm 
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atque = and
etiam = also
qui = who
quamlibet = as much as you please
ob = for
rationem = reason
iter = trip / journey / voyage
maritimum = maritime (adjective)
susceperunt = have undertaken

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 Post subject: Re: Translate this .. from motu proprio Stella Maris
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:14 pm 
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lbt wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
what dictates whether it should be -erunt or -ere?


I believe -ere is an alternate of -erunt.

You believe correctly. IIRC, -ere is a late Latin shortening of the original ending.

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 Post subject: Re: Translate this .. from motu proprio Stella Maris
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:13 pm 
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thanks guys...


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