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 Post subject: The CCC on Purgatory...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:20 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Something that has always kindda bothered me about the CCC was its was definition of purgatory,

Quote:
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.

Traditionally, purgatory has always been thought of (at the very least) as a temporary privation of the Beatific Vision, thereby causing incomprehensible pain as a punishment. Now if that's the case, wouldn't stating "Purgatory [is the] final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.." be over stating things? It's as if some anonymous author had his theological speculation slipped in there...

Anyway, I thought I'd have a look at the Latin,

Quote:
Ecclesia purgatorium hanc finalem appellat electorum purificationem quae prorsus a damnatorum poena est diversa.

Don't know Latin but I had a look at the butchered "Google Translate" translation.

Is it possible to translate the problematic portion to "altogether free from the different punishment of the damned", "entirely free from the different punishment of the damned", or some other wording?


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 Post subject: Re: The CCC on Purgatory...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:25 am 
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Majesty
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According to the French edition of CCC:

L’Église appelle Purgatoire cette purification finale des élus qui est tout à fait distincte du châtiment des damnés.

"tout à fait distincte du châtiment des damnés" would be translated as "completely distinct from the punishment of the damned". Here, the Latin word "prorsum" as an adverb has the meaning "absolument", that is, "absolutely".

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 Post subject: Re: The CCC on Purgatory...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:25 am 
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There's a footnote for this sentence in the CCC paragraph 1030:

Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.

You might want to check these references if you have a book titled The Companion to the Catechism of the Catholic Church - A Compendium of Texts Referred to in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, published by Ignatius Press, 1994.

Also, the paragraph 1030 refers to other paragraphs in CCC, especially 954 and 1472.

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 Post subject: Re: The CCC on Purgatory...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:23 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Thanks! I'll have a look into those.

The reason I'm asking is that I'm currently in a discussion with a sedevacantist who claims that the CCC now rejects the "pain of sense" when it comes to purgatory. I tried to argue that the CCC didn't wish to definitively settle this particular issue, but, apparently, as Catholics we are bound to religious assent even to non-infallible teachings. Hence if the CCC says the punishment of purgatory is "entirely" different from hell, we're bound to believe it (or so the sede argyes).

Anyway, I was hoping that the original wording might have been different...


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 Post subject: Re: The CCC on Purgatory...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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Ecclesia purgatorium hanc finalem appellat electorum purificationem quae prorsus a damnatorum poena est diversa.

The Church names the final purification of the elect purgatory, which is entirely different from the pain of the damned

Your sede made a grievious mistake. The translation is fine, and no theologian would have any difficulty with it

Remember the pains of Hell are two fold (at least in common teaching)

poena damnatorum- the pain of separation from God as our final end for eternity

and

poena sensus

Purgatory certainly does not have the first. As poena damnatorum is the word(s) in the CCC and it is also the technical term for the essential and exclusive punishment of Hell, there is no difficulty, nor any reason to think that the pain/punishment of sense is excluded from purgatory. Heck, it can be the very same physical fire that torments the damned and purifies the suffering souls. Still, there is no poena damnatorum for the suffering souls

As for the pain of being deprived the vision of God, that differs, does it not, not only by duration but also in kind? The suffering souls have hope after all.

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