No...I have it in my ESV. Love that chapter, to be honest. Good stuff.

If the Eucharist wasn't a belief held by the entire Church, don't you think someone would have bothered speaking out against it? St. Iranaeus or St. Hippolytus maybe.

How do you know they didn't? You're arguing from silence?

Your argument is now one of from silence?

Schools are really doing a miserable job at teaching people to think critically (or rationally).

I'm not the one arguing that because there is nothing recorded from 2000 years ago opposing my stance, I must be right.

From what I read, in context, he never says that Satan is going to be saved. Rather than embark on a post better left to others, I can only say that the doctrine of apokatastasis was condemned by the Church.

You seem to have the mistaken idea that we believe the Fathers to be infallible.

The only ones who argued against the Eucharist are the Gnostics who denied that Jesus came in the flesh to begin with. Its rather amazing how many similarities protestants share with gnosticism's various forms.

That should tell you something...

That isn't the argument, in fact there is tons of opposition recorded, even right there in the New Testament itself, there were the Gnostics and the Judaizers right there in the time of the apostles..... the argument isn't that there is a lack of record, the argument is that the records show that the Catholic Church was right, and that the people who opposed the Church (who are known as 'heretics') were wrong...

There's a continual stream of Church Fathers and bishops and the whole of Catholicism promoting the idea of the Eucharist, and nary a detractor except for those mentioned above by various people. The reason I mention the two Saints above is because they both compiled works against various heresies, and neither mentioned the Eucharist as being one of those. You'd think that if there were some contention and it was a controversial belief held by the minority, as you seemed to say earlier, that they would have mentioned it. By anyone's standard belief vs non-belief in the Eucharist is a pretty big difference in theology.

that's the whole issue of "fuzzy quotes". Depending on how exactly you read the ECF, you may think one thing or another. Then, you say they're not infallible. Yet, you base your religion largely on tradition, which relies heavily on the ECF that you pick and choose to believe.

You get my point? It's all very confusing to a non-catholic. I mean no offense, but seriously...take a step back and look at it.

This is the first post of yours that I have seen that displays anything like a hint of an actual recognition that perhaps you don't understand the Catholic view, and that the Catholics might actually be able to explain it to you so that you can come to understand it better. That might mark some real progress. We can hope, anyway.

That there is nothing new under the sun

I'll get this one to vegas. You can bet on anything there I understand. I am sure the payout will be big if it happens.

What do Catholics consider to be the most trustworthy source for knowing the truth of God's word

What God himself declared to be the pillar of truth, His Church.

Provide me a list of infallible books in the infallible Bible and prove to me the infallibility of the list. And since the Bible is your only infallible authority, where does the Bible says that the individual writings contained within are infallible and inspired?

There is no proof, only the weight of evidence.

I believe we should start with the ['one mind' (Acts 15:25)] consensus Bible: the Old Testament (without the apocrypha) and the New Testament, because this is consensus like the The Council at Jerusalem (Acts15:1-29) Catholics and Protestants agree on these groups of books.

2 Timothy 3:16

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice,

Only God is the infallible authority!
John 10 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)




John 10

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

10 Amen, amen I say to you: He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up another way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.


3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he hath let out his own sheep, he goeth before them: and [b]the sheep follow him, because they know his voice.
5 But a stranger they follow not, but fly from him, because they know not the voice of strangers.


6 This proverb Jesus spoke to them. But they understood not what he spoke to them.

7 Jesus therefore said to them again: Amen, amen I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All others, as many as have come, are thieves and robbers: and the sheep heard them not.

9 I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved: and he shall go in, and go out, and shall find pastures.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I am come that they may have life, and may have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep.

12 But the hireling, and he that is not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and flieth: and the wolf catcheth, and scattereth the sheep:

13 And the hireling flieth, because he is a hireling: and he hath no care for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me.

15 As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.

18 No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

19 A dissension rose again among the Jews for these words.

20 And many of them said: He hath a devil, and is mad: why hear you him?

21 Others said: These are not the words of one that hath a devil: Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?

22 And it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem: and it was winter.

23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch.

24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.


27 [b]My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me.


28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand.

29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father.

30 I and the Father are one.

31 The Jews then took up stones to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me?

33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods?

35 If he called them gods, to whom to word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

39 They sought therefore to take him; and he escaped out of their hands.

40 And he went again beyond the Jordan, into that place where John was baptizing first; and there he abode.

41 And many resorted to him, and they said: John indeed did no sign.

42 But all things whatsoever John said of this man, were true. And many believed in him.



Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews, who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed.

32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

I have no idea what that post was supposed to imply or mean. Heck, I can't even figure out which side you were arguing.

Sons of Thunder
How did you Know about me and my ex-catholic bother: we are sons of thunder, all though i have been taking steps to move away from quick anger.

We all have our own world views, or points of view, therefore it does not surprise me that you at first blush, did not understand my post.

I believe we are all made by God in His image: awesome and wonderful; what a wonderful club to belong to!

Together, we can be at peace with the meaning i intended with this post.

I was merely trying to respond to the given questions about 'infallibility'. What about, what i have written, puzzles you?

( I am on you all and God's side. My motto is GOD IS LOVE, and that is what i seek to be:full of His love, by His Grace.)

I have no idea what that post was supposed to imply or mean. Heck, I can't even figure out which side you were arguing.

gjd, etc, please don't answer someone by editing your own post to include an answer. Make a new post.

I think he was agreeing with gherkin.