ex cathedra statements

pax · **Posted:** Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:12 pm

Calvinist wrote:

Is there any reason to believe your claim of the church being infallible other than the church stating it is so?

I am moving this question to our thread.

The M Word · **Posted:** Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:41 pm

Calvinist wrote:

The M Word wrote:

Calvinist,
Am I to understand that after your call for assistance in making someone answer your question, that you truly do not have a question only a hypothetical that you do not want to believe is impossible? You have no real basis for this hypothetical, just a desire for the statement "It cannot happen." not to be true?

Is there any reason to believe your claim of the church being infallible other than the church stating it is so?

I asked that above, too. But I believe the issue I was bothered by was a certain cucumber trolling the thread, but not actively participating in it.

Truly, Calvinist, I had not ventured into this thread until you raised your hand. Then I read the thread. I cannot find the point. You have danced a merry dance of nothingness and then demanded answers to questions that don't exist. When I ask you to provide a real example, you claim it will be dismissed out of hand so refuse to cite that which you are attempting to claim. I honestly, see more value in the things stated by said cucumber than I do from you.

I am attempting to be fair and give you the opportunity to cite an example of something you feel is Papal error. WHile you contend it is possible, you do not seem to be able to find Papal error in 2000+ years of history. Unless you demonstrate otherwise, I think this suggests exactly the opposite of what you are supposing. In other words, you are providing your own proof.

gherkin · **Posted:** Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:38 pm

Calvinist wrote:

First of all, anything I cite is going to be claimed to either be an "unofficial teaching" or a pope's opinion....and thus is not binding.

There you go again, telling us what we'll say. Gosh, what do you need us for, anyway? You insist on writing both sides of the dialogue. And badly.

beng · **Posted:** Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:08 pm

Let's cut to the chase,

Calvinist, you want a list of ex cathedra statements. This is what the thread is about.

Let me give you a non nonsense answer. There is no definitive list.

You want to yell, "gotcha" (per what Gherkin correctly pointed out), fine. Be my guess.

The fact is the non-existence of such list does not nullified the Catholic Church in anyway. It's similar, but not exactly the same, with the logic of you various Protestant groups of holding the same essentials doctrines but could never provide the list of those essentials doctrines. [edit]At least we have Denzinger[/edit]

Another important thing is that IF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WANTS TO she could make such list. But she, yet, never feels the need to [make such list]. There are a truck load of more important thing she should do. Making such list would be priority no:5,361,541 (half of that are priorities that existed only after the 60's [hint hint]).

Calvinist · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:39 am

beng wrote:

Let's cut to the chase,

Calvinist, you want a list of ex cathedra statements. This is what the thread is about.

Let me give you a non nonsense answer. There is no definitive list.

You want to yell, "gotcha" (per what Gherkin correctly pointed out), fine. Be my guess.

The fact is the non-existence of such list does not nullified the Catholic Church in anyway. It's similar, but not exactly the same, with the logic of you various Protestant groups of holding the same essentials doctrines but could never provide the list of those essentials doctrines. [edit]At least we have Denzinger[/edit]

Another important thing is that IF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WANTS TO she could make such list. But she, yet, never feels the need to [make such list]. There are a truck load of more important thing she should do. Making such list would be priority no:5,361,541 (half of that are priorities that existed only after the 60's [hint hint]).

Is it unreasonable to ask for a list to at least examine? I've heard the accusation of seeking a "gotcha" moment a few times....instead of just assuming my motives, why not at least try to answer the question? If you can't, just say so.

faithfulservant · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:14 am

didn't he just do that... :scratch:

there is no definitive list put out by the Church... Fr Horton provided you a list of de fide statements, not once, but a few times...why not just choose one of those items (should you actually have a problem with it), and use that as a basis for your "discussion"

pax · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:33 am

Try this:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/72890230/Dogm ... lic-Church

Calvinist · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:33 am

faithfulservant wrote:

didn't he just do that... :scratch:

there is no definitive list put out by the Church... Fr Horton provided you a list of de fide statements, not once, but a few times...why not just choose one of those items (should you actually have a problem with it), and use that as a basis for your "discussion"

to be honest, I was kind of hoping for a more "official" list of when they've been given. Instead I kind of got a list of general catholic teachings.

No worries...I honestly didn't really expect a real list.

pax · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:49 am

Calvinist wrote:

faithfulservant wrote:

didn't he just do that... :scratch:

there is no definitive list put out by the Church... Fr Horton provided you a list of de fide statements, not once, but a few times...why not just choose one of those items (should you actually have a problem with it), and use that as a basis for your "discussion"

to be honest, I was kind of hoping for a more "official" list of when they've been given. Instead I kind of got a list of general catholic teachings.

No worries...I honestly didn't really expect a real list.

The de fide teachings of the Church were given by the Apostles sometime between A.D. 33 -90. They have been formulated at various times and in various places. I will see if I can find you something that lists the Councils and Papal decrees of their formulations over the years.

pax · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:52 am

Denzinger's Enchiridion is probably the best source for what the teachings are and when they were formulated.

http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma.php

Obi-Wan Kenobi · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:07 pm

The book from which the list I gave was extracted gives all the details concerning the time and manner of formal definition. If there's one in which you are particularly interested, I (or someone else) can provide it. But the whole thing, as noted, is book-length.

beng · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:45 am

Calvinist wrote:

to be honest, I was kind of hoping for a more "official" list of when they've been given. Instead I kind of got a list of general catholic teachings.

No worries...I honestly didn't really expect a real list.

You've got to be kidding. "General Catholic teachings?"

Have you even read the book? (ie. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott]

Do you have cash? You're not dirt-poor are you? Try to spare some and buy the book. If you want to know the real Catholic teachings, instead of its mis-characterization, and it's foundations in the bible and Tradition of the fathers (you know, the Early Church Fathers, men who made the Christian Church what it is, men who are smarter, holier and more pleasing to God than pastor Bob or even ex-Father Martin Luther OSA [Ordo Sancti Augustini] or one John Calvin), you'd buy the book.

If Protestant, or even Orthodox have the equivalence of Ott, I will work minimum wage to buy it. Why? Because it would be a hell lot practical for me to know what my opponenet believe (instead of mischaracterization of what they believe) and the reasoning (bible-wise or Tradition-wise). You would wish that you have such a book.

pax · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:12 am

beng wrote:

Calvinist wrote:

to be honest, I was kind of hoping for a more "official" list of when they've been given. Instead I kind of got a list of general catholic teachings.

No worries...I honestly didn't really expect a real list.

You've got to be kidding. "General Catholic teachings?"

Have you even read the book? (ie. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott]

Do you have cash? You're not dirt-poor are you? Try to spare some and buy the book. If you want to know the real Catholic teachings, instead of its mis-characterization, and it's foundations in the bible and Tradition of the fathers (you know, the Early Church Fathers, men who made the Christian Church what it is, men who are smarter, holier and more pleasing to God than pastor Bob or even ex-Father Martin Luther OSA [Ordo Sancti Augustini] or one John Calvin), you'd buy the book.

If Protestant, or even Orthodox have the equivalence of Ott, I will work minimum wage to buy it. Why? Because it would be a hell lot practical for me to know what my opponenet believe (instead of mischaracterization of what they believe) and the reasoning (bible-wise or Tradition-wise). You would wish that you have such a book.

What you said there, beng, reminded me of this:

Pope Pius XI wrote:

[T]hose also turn aside from the right path, who think that the deposit of truth such laborious trouble, and with such lengthy study and discussion, that a man's life would hardly suffice to find and take possession of it; as if the most merciful God had spoken through the prophets and His Only-begotten Son merely in order that a few, and those stricken in years, should learn what He had revealed through them, and not that He might inculcate a doctrine of faith and morals, by which man should be guided through the whole course of his moral life.

ex cathedra statements

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