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 Post subject: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:17 am 
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Please do not respond to this if you are not a priest or higher.
I have been a Catholic all of my life. I may be a "clueless Catholic" like it says in the article I found. I was reading a article on the web by a Catholic newsletter, and I read a article on the Sacrifice of the Mass. It states-

"But as we had also said, before any of this occurs, you must first understand what is happening before you – and it is this, and nothing less than this:

Jesus Christ is being crucified before you. He is on the Cross! And you are witnessing it. You are even taking part in it!

It is not another Sacrifice, but the same Sacrifice that He enacted 2000 years ago. It is not a "re-enactment" much as great battles are re-enacted for theatrical effect. It is an "enactment", the "same" enactment, re-presented to us (not represented to us, but "re-presented") to us ... enacted again while not being a second or another sacrifice. It is the same Sacrifice, with one exception: it is unbloody ... just as it was unbloody when He gathered His Apostles around Him at the very first Mass on the night He was betrayed and before He was crucified:"

It goes on to say in thier main point of this chapter

"The Mass is the enactment, really and truly present before you, of Jesus' Sacrifice on Calvary, and you have a very real part in it."

The point of the chapter as I believe is that Jesus is turned into the body and blood of Christ, and the priest breaks it, sacrificing it. Is this true?

Also, if the wine is truely his blood, then how does this article say it is differant in only one way-that it is unbloody? do we really go back to golgatha like they say?


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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:32 am 
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By the way, the other question I had-If at the Lord's supper he handed the body and blood of himself to them, and stated that, and it was before his passion, why does he have to be sacrificed at the mass? The last supper was before his crucifixion. "This is my body...." thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:40 am 
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mikeangel wrote:
Please do not respond to this if you are not a priest or higher.

May I ask why the restriction? Seems kinda of, to be frank, a demand of someone with a little bit too much self-importance
Quote:
The point of the chapter as I believe is that Jesus is turned into the body and blood of Christ, and the priest breaks it, sacrificing it. Is this true?

Also, if the wine is truely his blood, then how does this article say it is differant in only one way-that it is unbloody? do we really go back to golgatha like they say?

I will answer anyways, in case Father does not see this

1. The priest "breaking the Host" is not essential to the sacrifice of the Mass. If someone wrote that, they were mistaken. What is essential to the double consecration.

2. The wine is both His body and blood

Christ is resurrected and it is actually Christ as He is that is substantially present in the Eucharist, hence under the appearance of either bread or wine is the whole of Christ- body, blood, soul, divinity

Nevertheless, the appearance of bread represents His body and that of wine His blood. This is a little tricky. Christ is really present, entire, under either. But there is, in addition to that, a symbolism of the appearance of bread and wine. The bread represents His body and the wine His blood, and by being consecrated separately there is signified a separation of body and blood. That is, a signification of death. Still, Christ is not killed again, His blood is not separated from His body, but with the Eucharist, which is He in reality, that separation of old is recalled and signified. Hence in the new rite we say or sing right after the consecration "Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.- We announce your death, O Lord, and confess your resurrection, till you come again"

When the Host is broken, Christ isn't. He is whole and entire under both pieces of bread, even the smallest particle (so long as it still has the appearance of bread)

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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:57 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
mikeangel wrote:
Please do not respond to this if you are not a priest or higher.

May I ask why the restriction? Seems kinda of, to be frank, a demand of someone with a little bit too much self-importance
Quote:
The point of the chapter as I believe is that Jesus is turned into the body and blood of Christ, and the priest breaks it, sacrificing it. Is this true?

Also, if the wine is truely his blood, then how does this article say it is differant in only one way-that it is unbloody? do we really go back to golgatha like they say?

I will answer anyways, in case Father does not see this

1. The priest "breaking the Host" is not essential to the sacrifice of the Mass. If someone wrote that, they were mistaken. What is essential to the double consecration.

2. The wine is both His body and blood

Christ is resurrected and it is actually Christ as He is that is substantially present in the Eucharist, hence under the appearance of either bread or wine is the whole of Christ- body, blood, soul, divinity

Nevertheless, the appearance of bread represents His body and that of wine His blood. This is a little tricky. Christ is really present, entire, under either. But there is, in addition to that, a symbolism of the appearance of bread and wine. The bread represents His body and the wine His blood, and by being consecrated separately there is signified a separation of body and blood. That is, a signification of death. Still, Christ is not killed again, His blood is not separated from His body, but with the Eucharist, which is He in reality, that separation of old is recalled and signified. Hence in the new rite we say or sing right after the consecration "Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.- We announce your death, O Lord, and confess your resurrection, till you come again"

When the Host is broken, Christ isn't. He is whole and entire under both pieces of bread, even the smallest particle (so long as it still has the appearance of bread)

First, the reason for the restriction is that the answer is extremely important, even unto staying in the Catholic church after 47 years of life. So your answer does not carry the weight I was hoping for. You seem to make a simple answer very complicated also IMHO. Be that as it may, beside the separation you gave as to what Jesus is in the Eucharist- When is Jesus present exactly, and when is he sacrificed, if that is what is happening? Also, what role exactly does the priest play in sacrificing him? What role do we play in sacrificing him? Is it bloodless like the quote from the newsletter says?"It is the same Sacrifice, with one exception: it is unbloody ... " Also another question that was unanswered- are we really taken back to calvary and sacrificing Jesus symbolicly? Thanks anyway-Me


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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:01 pm 
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The only priest who posts here regularly is me.

Fortunately I just wrote up at least part of the answer to this:

I wrote:
The Bible verse which most often raises a question is John 6:53: “So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.’ ” If people do not receive from the chalice, how is it that they drink the blood of Christ? This was one of the complaints of would-be reformers during the Protestant Reformation.

In 1551, the Catholic bishops meeting at the Council of Trent responded by explaining the constant teaching of the Church. Their language is technical, but their essential point is this: The Body and Blood of Christ were separated when Christ died upon the Cross, but they were reunited at His Resurrection. The Body we receive when we receive the Eucharist is the living Body of Christ. Since a living body has blood in it, we receive the Precious Blood any time we receive the Body. Since living blood lives only within a living body, we also receive the Body any time we receive the Precious Blood. This is known as the doctrine of concomitance (from a Latin word meaning “to accompany”; this doctrine is an official teaching of the Catholic faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:01 pm 
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BTW, the odds that PED will give you a wrong answer on something like this are essentially 0.

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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:17 am 
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Thank you Father to take the time to reply. I believe that it is the body and blood of Christ. That never has been a question to me. Jesus said it, I believe it. What I am wanting specific answers to is about the sacrifice.

Quote:
When is Jesus present exactly, and when is he sacrificed, if that is what is happening? Also, what role exactly does the priest play in sacrificing him? What role do we play in sacrificing him? Is it bloodless like the quote from the newsletter says?" When is Jesus present exactly, and when is he sacrificed, if that is what is happening? Also, what role exactly does the priest play in sacrificing him? What role do we play in sacrificing him? Is it bloodless like the quote from the newsletter says?"It is the same Sacrifice, with one exception: it is unbloody ... " Also another question that was unanswered- are we really taken back to calvary and sacrificing Jesus symbolicly? Thanks anyway-Me


" Also another question that was unanswered- are we really taken back to calvary and sacrificing Jesus symbolicly? Thanks anyway-Me


To simplify-1. Are we sacrificing Jesus?
2.What role does the priest have if we are?
3.What role do we have ?
4.Is it a "bloodless" sacrifice like the article said?

Thank you-Me


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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:07 am 
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"We" as the congregation? No, you aren't. Only the priest does. That's why the new Mass translation that begins in a few weeks says, "Pray, brethren, that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable," instead of the current, "our sacrifice." I'm offering the sacrifice of Christ. You are offering whatever spiritual offering you wish to make along with it.

I suspect the article didn't say "bloodless." It should have said "In an unbloody manner," which is correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:05 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei is qualified to answer any questions that a priest can answer (and his answers are trustworthy, reliable, and orthodox). We count on him for that a lot, and often don't show our appreciation for his help as we should. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:38 am 
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You seem to be reading the article in exactly the way it says not to read it. Christ is not re-sacrificed, we are made present at His sacrifice. We aren't "taken back" in time. His sacrifice on the Cross is as real today as it was then. It is a mystery, so mere words are insufficient, especially mine. But, no, we aren't nailing His Body to the Cross at Mass. The Mass is tied (for lack of a better word) to the Last Supper, wherein Christ instituted the Eucharistic Sacrifice, the unbloody sacrifice.

There is a passage from the Bible which is pertinent: Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

This article from the Catholic Encyclopedia might help you understand: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm

Scroll down to the section entitled: Scriptural Proof, particularly the part concerning the New Testament.

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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:13 am 
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Thank you for your responses. I will not try to say what this article states, instead, here it is-


The Road to Golgotha


We had just said that,

"With us, that new world of unspeakable life and beauty will be revealed ... when we close our eyes. "As the eyes of the body close, the eyes of faith open. And what they will see, discover to us, reveal, will touch the fiber of our being ... and more than touch it, transform it!"


How so?
Once you begin to understand where you are – really and truly – a change, a profound change, will begin to occur within you. You will be unable to prevent it. Initially – even necessarily – it will come to you through your understanding, and as you enter more deeply into the realization of where you are, your understanding itself will begin to be eclipsed by something deeper still, by something more vital.

Understanding will "tell" you where you are – but faith will take you beyond the appearances, to the the realities beneath them. The change that will come will occur within you – not in the appearances of things about you.

You will have changed.

But as we had also said, before any of this occurs, you must first understand what is happening before you – and it is this, and nothing less than this:

Jesus Christ is being crucified before you. He is on the Cross! And you are witnessing it. You are even taking part in it!

It is not another Sacrifice, but the same Sacrifice that He enacted 2000 years ago. It is not a "re-enactment" much as great battles are re-enacted for theatrical effect. It is an "enactment", the "same" enactment, re-presented to us (not represented to us, but "re-presented") to us ... enacted again while not being a second or another sacrifice. It is the same Sacrifice, with one exception: it is unbloody ... just as it was unbloody when He gathered His Apostles around Him at the very first Mass on the night He was betrayed and before He was crucified:

"The day before He suffered he took bread in His sacred hands and looking up to heaven, to you, His almighty Father, He gave you thanks and praise. He broke the bread, gave it to His disciples and said: Take this, all of you and eat it: this is My body which will be given up for you. When supper was ended, He took the cup. Again He gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said: Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of My blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant."
(Eucharistic Prayer I)


But now you witness it before you, take part in it ... see the unspeakable value of your life (in His love for you Christ suffered and died) ... and the consequences of your choices (the sins by which and for which He suffered, was crucified, and died) ... right before you!

Time, we told you, had been left in the vestibule as we entered the Church. It no longer divides us from that day.

We have entered into something sacred, and everything sacred is invested with the eternal, for it pertains to God Who IS eternal; Whose Son is eternal; the Son of God, now here before us on that Cross of agony hewn from our sins.

How then will you enter?

Everything that leads up to the Canon of the Mass (that most sacred part of the Mass in which the Consecration occurs, when the bread becomes Jesus' Body, the wine His Blood) is a prologue to that epic moment when He will be sacrificed before you.

When you passed the doors leading into the Church and toward the Sanctuary, you began to wend your way through the road that leads to Golgotha, the Place of the Skull, the Mount of Crucifixion — the Altar of Sacrifice.

Not unlike 2000 years ago, the people that line the way, the voices, the talking, the laughing, together with all the other things that compete for your attention as you walk that road to your pew – one and all, they will call you aside, distract you as though to call you away from a false prophet on a road well worn and ultimately tiresome ...

Something has changed, however. This day is unlike other days. You have begun to understand ...

How, then, will you enter?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What we have learned today: The Mass is the enactment, really and truly present before you, of Jesus' Sacrifice on Calvary, and you have a very real part in it.



I am not trying to be difficult in asking for a priest specific, or disrespecting anyone. Please to not misunderstand me. I am just humbly requesting some answers to some questions that this Article states, and would like to know more about it. It isn't like I am saying PED is or isn't qualified to answer it, but to me a priest who has studied in a seminary his purpose in the mass is first hand information.

That being said, very humbly I ask- Is Jesus being sacrificed? How exactly? When exactly? With this article before you, is this true? What parts of it are not ? Thanks-Me


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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:57 am 
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[quote][Everything that leads up to the Canon of the Mass (that most sacred part of the Mass in which the Consecration occurs, when the bread becomes Jesus' Body, the wine His Blood) is a prologue to that epic moment when He will be sacrificed before you.

/quote] This is the Question- In this sentance, it states- "He will be sacrificed before you". Is this true? If so, exactly when and how during the consecration does this happen?


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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:09 am 
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mikeangel wrote:
Is Jesus being sacrificed?

You can ignore my answer if you wish but your basic question here does not need a priest to answer it. Any Catholic who has had proper instruction, can.

1. No, Our Lord is not re-sacrificed at every Mass. It is a re-presentation, not a litteral re-sacrifice.

2. Christ is present, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, in even the smallest particle of the consecrated Host or drop of Precious Blood. It's not like Kentucky Fried Chicken where one communicant gets a leg and the other a thigh. When the Host is broken, one is not breaking Christ's arm off, right? I don't mean to be disrespectful to the Holy Eucharist but it is a theological question that can be answered with just a little common sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:10 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:00 pm 
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mikeangel wrote:
First, the reason for the restriction is that the answer is extremely important, even unto staying in the Catholic church after 47 years of life. So your answer does not carry the weight I was hoping for. You seem to make a simple answer very complicated also IMHO. Be that as it may, beside the separation you gave as to what Jesus is in the Eucharist- When is Jesus present exactly, and when is he sacrificed, if that is what is happening? Also, what role exactly does the priest play in sacrificing him? What role do we play in sacrificing him? Is it bloodless like the quote from the newsletter says?"It is the same Sacrifice, with one exception: it is unbloody ... " Also another question that was unanswered- are we really taken back to calvary and sacrificing Jesus symbolicly? Thanks anyway-Me

I actually did answer you. I am sorry if you didn't see how that answers your questions. I tried to be thorough, and frankly that was not a complicated answer. It was an answer that has been understood by people with no Christian, let alone Catholic, background. I could have thrown a lot more in there.


1. The bread becomes Jesus Christ when the priest says the words "This is my Body...." and the wine becomes Jesus Christ when he says "This is the chalice of my blood...". This is why the priest genuflects after saying these words and raises the Host and chalice to the people at that time.

2. Christ sacrificed Himself (He is both priest and Victim) on Golgotha. This same sacrifice is made present again at the Mass. Most certainly this happens when both the Host and chalice are consecrated, though some theologians hold it is also essential that the Victim be consumed (the priest's communion). Certainly the celebrating priest's communion is required at every Mass, even if no one else receives, but it is a dispute point rather it is part of the essence of the sacrifice. This was explained in my previous post which went on about the symbolism of separating blood and body.

3. The priest acts "in the person of Christ". Hence, it is Christ who, through His priest here on earth, represents His sacrifice to the Father. When the priest speaks the words "This is my body" the "my" there is Christ, Christ is speaking through him.

4. A priest can offer Mass by himself, privately. The laity, the congregation, participate and can offer the Sacrifice, not the way the celebrant does, but by uniting their hearts and minds to God and offering up "with the priest" their adoration, petitions, praise and thanksgiving

5. It is the same sacrifice offered, but in an unbloody manner. Again, this was explained earlier. We do not break Christ, kill Him, shed His blood. The priest's words, in consecrating the Eucharist, "render an unbloody cut" as one Father put it.


You had to have heard the phrase "Sacrifice of the Mass" before? At the very least have heard the multiple references to the Mass being a sacrifice that are said at Mass? At least any Mass in English would be clear on that (the original Latin perhaps clear)..."May the Lord accept this sacrifice at your hands...". You have said that hundreds of times if you have been Catholic 47 years.

"As often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come." states St. Paul in Scripture

Can I suggest something very simple? Read a Catechism on this.

The Roman Catechism is very clear, even if some aspects of it (matters of discipline, not doctrine) are outdated

http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/m ... sacr-e.htm

Or there is the Catechism of pope St. Pius X

1 Q: Should the Holy Eucharist be considered only as a sacrament?

A: The Holy Eucharist, besides being a sacrament, is also the permanent Sacrifice of the New Law, which Jesus Christ left to His Church to be offered to God by the hands of His priests.
2 Q: In what in general does a sacrifice consist?

A: In general a sacrifice consists in the offering of some sensible thing to God and in some way destroying it as an acknowledgment of His Supreme Dominion over us and over all things.
3 Q: What is this Sacrifice of the New Law called?

A: This Sacrifice of the New Law is called the Holy Mass.
4 Q: What, then, is the Holy Mass?

A: The Holy Mass is the Sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ offered on our altars under the appearances of bread and wine, in commemoration of the Sacrifice of the Cross.
5 Q: Is the Sacrifice of the Mass the same as that of the Cross?

A: The Sacrifice of the Mass is substantially the same as that of the Cross, for the same Jesus Christ, Who offered Himself on the Cross, it is Who offers Himself by the hands of the priests, His ministers, on our altars; but as regards the way in which He is offered, the Sacrifice of the Mass differs from the Sacrifice of the Cross, though retaining the most intimate and essential relation to it.
6 Q: What difference and relation then is there between the Sacrifice of the Mass and that of the Cross?

A: Between the Sacrifice of the Mass and that of the Cross there is this difference and relation, that on the Cross Jesus Christ offered Himself by shedding His Blood and meriting for us; whereas on our altars He sacrifices Himself without the shedding of His Blood, and applies to us the fruits of His passion And death.
7 Q: What other relation has the Sacrifice of the Mass to that of the Cross?

A: Another relation of the Sacrifice of the Mass to that of the Cross is, that the Sacrifice of the Mass represents in a sensible way the shedding of the Blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross, because, in virtue of the words of consecration, only the Body of our Savior is made present under the species of the bread and only His Blood under the species of the wine; although by natural concomitance and by the hypostatic union, the living And real Jesus Christ is present under each of the species.
8 Q: Is not the Sacrifice of the Cross the one only Sacrifice of the New Law?

A: The Sacrifice of the Cross is the one only Sacrifice of the New Law, inasmuch as through it Our Lord satisfied Divine Justice, acquired all the merits necessary to save us, and thus, on His part, fully accomplished our redemption. These merits, however, He applies to us through the means instituted by Him in His Church, among which is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
9 Q: For what ends then is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered?

A: The Sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God for four ends: (1) To honor Him properly, and hence it is called Latreutical; (2) To thank Him for His favors, and hence it is called Eucharistical; (3) To appease Him, make Him due satisfaction for our sins, and to help the souls in Purgatory, and hence it is called Propitiatory; (4) To obtain all the graces necessary for us, and hence it is called Impetratory.
10 Q: Who is it that offers to God the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass?

A: The first and principal Offerer of the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass is Jesus Christ, while the priest is the minister who in the Name of Jesus Christ offers the same Sacrifice to the Eternal Father.
11 Q: Who instituted the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass?

A: Jesus Christ Himself instituted the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass when He instituted the Sacrament of the Blessed Eucharist and said that this should be done in memory of His passion.
12 Q: To whom is the Holy Mass offered?

A: The Holy Mass is offered to God alone.
13 Q: If the Holy Mass is offered to God alone why are so many Masses celebrated in honor of the Blessed Virgin And the Saints?

A: Mass celebrated in honor of the Blessed Virgin and the Saints is always a sacrifice offered to God alone; it is said to be celebrated in honor of the Blessed Virgin and the Saints to thank God for the gifts He has given them, and through their intercession to obtain from Him more abundantly the graces of which we have need.
14 Q: Who shares in the fruits of the Mass?

A: The entire Church shares in the fruits of the Mass, but more particularly: (1) The priest and those who assist at Mass, the latter being united with the priest; (2) Those for whom the Mass is applied, both living and dead.



Or there is the Catechism of the Catholic Church
1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:

[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.187

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."188

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P41.HTM


BTW, I did my graduate work at a seminary school, with Dominicans.


Oh, in case there is any question, the 7th question and answer from St. Pius X. Basically all it is saying is that the words of consecration, "This is my Body" concerns only the body, and not the blood. If the Body and Blood of Christ were separate, then only the Body would be present under the appearance of bread. Natural concomitance just means means that since the body and blood are together in Christ, where His body is there is His blood. So, in crude language, the priest words have power to make present the body under the appearance of bread, but no power to make present anything else, but since the body is united to the blood, and what is more to the Divinity of Christ, you get the whole package

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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:21 pm 
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Thank you so much for your help on this. I wasn't aware of all the education you had, I didn't know you. I do not post on message boards much, so forgive the seeming arrogance you felt. Would you be so kind as to expand on this-

'The priest acts "in the person of Christ". "

What does this mean? The priest is acting as Christ? Not just the "spiritual father", but Christ?

Also, I am a clueless Catholic, just as the article stated. I always thought that the sacrifice of the mass was our offering of ourselves to God and the sacrifice of our time, talent , treasure, and ourselves to one another in order to share in his sacrifice. I never thought it had to do with his being sacrificed in any way, I thought that was all taken care of and completed totally on Calvary, destroying death once for all for all believers. I also read in Pauls letters that there was one sacrifice instead of many, otherwise he would have to be crucified over and over again for the atonement of our sins. I may not be as educated as you are, and am stupid as a cow, but I still think that. I will absolutely look way further into this. Thank you so much for your response, I have alot to digest, but for now, during mass, As God lives, I will be praying-forgive them Lord, they know not what they do. Peace-Me


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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:50 pm 
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mikeangel wrote:

'The priest acts "in the person of Christ". "

The current Catechism (Catechism of the Catholic Church) states

1548 In the ecclesial service of the ordained minister, it is Christ himself who is present to his Church as Head of his Body, Shepherd of his flock, high priest of the redemptive sacrifice, Teacher of Truth. This is what the Church means by saying that the priest, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, acts in persona Christi Capitis [in the person of Christ the head]:

It is the same priest, Christ Jesus, whose sacred person his minister truly represents. Now the minister, by reason of the sacerdotal consecration which he has received, is truly made like to the high priest and possesses the authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself (virtute ac persona ipsius Christi).

Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts in the person of Christ.



The Catechism cites several places, Vatican II, Pius XII and St. Thomas Aquinas of course

St. Thomas explains that the effects of Christ priesthood are made present in and through His ministers, just as through the sacraments the effects of His sacrifice is made present to the faithful. Basically Christ is the one who offered His sacrifice, Christ is the only that can absolve sins. The power of Christ in these acts is made present through the priest...the sacrament of Holy Orders being a certain conformity to Christ. Hence it is not the priest as a mere man that can say "I absolve you" but it is Christ speaking in the priest that can say that. In may be clear were our age different. You may have heard archaic turns of phrases like "you insult the king in the person of his minister" The idea is that the higher agent or authority is present in the person acting in his name. In the case of a king and his minister, the presence is certainly not physical but only moral. The king sent him to represent (re-present) the king, and hence there is delegated authority. Christ is present more than that, sacramentally as it is by His power that sins are absolved and the Mass offered

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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:01 pm 
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When the priest says, "This is my Body," it is Christ speaking through the agency of the priest.

When the priest says, "I absolve of your sins," it is Christ speaking through the agency of the priest.

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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:42 pm 
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mikeangel wrote:
I never thought it had to do with his being sacrificed in any way, I thought that was all taken care of and completed totally on Calvary, destroying death once for all for all believers. I also read in Pauls letters that there was one sacrifice instead of many, otherwise he would have to be crucified over and over again for the atonement of our sins.

Yes, this is what I was referring to in my bold and underlined part of my post. It is a common Protestant charge (among some) against what they present as Catholic belief that each 'sacrifice' of the Mass is a re-sacrificing of Christ. Completely and totally untrue. St. Paul was correct and such is upheld by Catholic doctrine. The Mass is a re-presenting of the once and for all time, sacrifice of Christ on the cross. It is not a re-sacrificing. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Sacrifice of the mass
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:36 am 
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So 1. In the mass, Christ is symbolicly sacrificed as part of the same sacrifice on Calvary, by his being present in the Eucharist and it's destruction to appease God for our sins. The same sacrifice as Calvary except that it is unbloody, and we do this for the forgiveness of our sins. And 2. While this is going on the priest is spiritualy Christ. Also in the confessional, he is also spiritually Christ. Is that it broken down before the explinations? About the sacrifice of the mass, if it is not another sacrifice, why is it called a sacrifice? Why isn't it called "a representation of the sacrifice of Jesus" instead of "the sacrifice"


Also, the comment about "anyone with common Catholic education" maybe valid. You need to write the Diocese of Memphis and complain, that from 1970 to 1983 they didn't teach these things specifically. I attended regularly, and paid attention, and participated. We learned the gifts of the holy spirit, forgiveness, etc. but this was not part of the classes. Also, my daughter and stepdaughters were in a discussion about Idols, and I asked them who Moses was. My daughter, a senior in high school, who went to PRE all her life, didn't know. My stepdaughter said "didn't he free the Egyptians". :fyi:


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