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 Post subject: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:49 am 
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Journeyman
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Dear All, I would like to know

What do we believe about people who commit suicide?

Do we still pray for them?
Do we think they go straight to hell?
If they are mentally ill then did they not understand their grave actions?


A guy I knew in HS killed himself last week. Really sad. That got me thinking about this topic.

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 Post subject: Re: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:16 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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I believe prayer is fine.
I believe it is never possible to tell if in their last moments they repented.....
I don't remember about Christian burial being permitted if that changed.....
It was still the case when a family member of ours did this some 15 years ago in Latin America....

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 Post subject: Re: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:29 am 
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Jedi Master
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Since 1983 (at least) there has been no general prohibition against Church funerals for people who have committed suicide.

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 Post subject: Re: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:30 am 
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Jedi Master
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CCC wrote:
2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

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 Post subject: Re: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:34 am 
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We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

CCC paragraph 2283.

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 Post subject: Re: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:47 am 
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Greg wrote:
We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

CCC paragraph 2283.


You have been force-fingered, my friend :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:06 am 
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Journeyman
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
CCC wrote:
2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.


Thanks. This really helps. I didn't know this was in the CCC.

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 Post subject: Re: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:05 pm 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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I think, practically speaking, a lot of people do commit suicide without being in their right frame of mind. A friend of mine, aged 24 was dumped by her boyfriend-love of her life, person she was engaged to...she went home, went into her bedroom and took an overdose, her parents found her and she survived that time. In the weeks that followed she was so distraught that she tried to slash her wrists, then tried to hang herself. Her parents were trying to get her help, and she seemed 'on the mend', when one day she asked to go for a drive...on the motorway, she asked her parents to pull over, she wasn't feeling well she said. As her father did so, she opened the back door, jumped out and died instantly after being hit by a car. She was happy-go-lucky a month beforehand, but the being dumped triggered something in her...she really was on a mission to die, any way possible. It wasn't her, it was a mental condition, her emotions simply overwhelmed her, she thought life was over, so it had to be.
Another friend, a few years earlier had wanted to join the army but didn't pass his medical to get in. The day he heard, he was so upset-he'd never considered another career-he walked to the train-tracks and threw himself in front of a train. Had he given himself a few days to think about it, he would have realised life doesn't finish because you don't get to go into the army...but he really felt that strongly about it.
In both cases, it was 1 event that triggered the suicide...and I think their feelings were just so overwhelming they couldn't be pulled back from that. They were both religious, one was Jewish, the other the son of a Reform minister. But, they also felt the pain was too bad to carry on...I do still pray for them, and I do hope that they were 'out of their right mind' when they did what they did, and God will have had mercy on them.

Personally, I've had those impulses, and after 25 years of chronic depression, I do understand how it feels sometimes...and although I know my life belongs to God, that doesn't mean that I never think along those lines...just that so far I've successfully fought off those thoughts. But I do understand and pray for people who didn't manage that...


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 Post subject: Re: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:40 pm 
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Journeyman
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anna1978 wrote:
I think, practically speaking, a lot of people do commit suicide without being in their right frame of mind. A friend of mine, aged 24 was dumped by her boyfriend-love of her life, person she was engaged to...she went home, went into her bedroom and took an overdose, her parents found her and she survived that time. In the weeks that followed she was so distraught that she tried to slash her wrists, then tried to hang herself. Her parents were trying to get her help, and she seemed 'on the mend', when one day she asked to go for a drive...on the motorway, she asked her parents to pull over, she wasn't feeling well she said. As her father did so, she opened the back door, jumped out and died instantly after being hit by a car. She was happy-go-lucky a month beforehand, but the being dumped triggered something in her...she really was on a mission to die, any way possible. It wasn't her, it was a mental condition, her emotions simply overwhelmed her, she thought life was over, so it had to be.
Another friend, a few years earlier had wanted to join the army but didn't pass his medical to get in. The day he heard, he was so upset-he'd never considered another career-he walked to the train-tracks and threw himself in front of a train. Had he given himself a few days to think about it, he would have realised life doesn't finish because you don't get to go into the army...but he really felt that strongly about it.
In both cases, it was 1 event that triggered the suicide...and I think their feelings were just so overwhelming they couldn't be pulled back from that. They were both religious, one was Jewish, the other the son of a Reform minister. But, they also felt the pain was too bad to carry on...I do still pray for them, and I do hope that they were 'out of their right mind' when they did what they did, and God will have had mercy on them.

Personally, I've had those impulses, and after 25 years of chronic depression, I do understand how it feels sometimes...and although I know my life belongs to God, that doesn't mean that I never think along those lines...just that so far I've successfully fought off those thoughts. But I do understand and pray for people who didn't manage that...

I never experienced this type of situation before, like someone I know.
Prayers for you too, that you be strong and always trust your life to God <3

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 Post subject: Re: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:00 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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Francisca wrote:
I never experienced this type of situation before, like someone I know.
Prayers for you too, that you be strong and always trust your life to God <3


Thank you :D !

I read this in the paper today, she obviously reacted irrationally, to commit suicide because her boyfriend cancelled a date!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2076557/Model-Gabby-Joesph-16-killed-train-boy-cancelled-cinema-date.html

I've learnt over the years that what seems like 'the end of the world' today, may be totally insignificant 5 years from now ( when my dh's business went under in 2006, he stood on a motorway, and felt a strong impulse to jump in front of a heavy goods vehicle...but instead he phoned me, completely confused and not 'himself'...but he still knew there was 'another choice' (i.e. to call me, because he knew I had fought those impulses myself when life overwhelms me) and somehow I talked and said the right words, and he came home. Now, he doesn't even remember it...all he remembers is standing on the hard shoulder, seeing all those cars whizz past at 70 m/p/h, and wanting to take one step forward. He doesn't remember anything beyond wanting to hear my voice one more time before he did it...Now, 5 years later he has a job he loves, colleagues who think he's great, we have a house, we get by financially, he sees our girls grow up. He now knows that what happened in March 2006 was a 'blip', a blip which cost us nearly $400.000,- and all we had...but it wasn't the end of the world! Nothing ever is! I don't remember what I said to him when he called me that day, apart from 'Come home', but what I do know is, I was right: it's NEVER the end of the world! I do know how it feels though, and I do know it is only by the grace of God that we are both still here, and I only feel sad for people who feel it IS the end of the world.
I'm sorry about your friend {{{HUGS}}}


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 Post subject: Re: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:48 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Even in the 1917 CIC, burial was denied only when suicide was chosen by one deliberately in sound mind.

Qui se ipsi occiderint deliberato consilio

Hence someone who did not act with "deliberate counsel", i.e. was mentally ill, would not have been denied a Christian burial even in the old days. The change in law is, in effect, a change in presumption. Whereas before it was basically no Christian burial, oh wait he was mentally ill, ok then. Now the presumption is for a Christian burial, and there would have to be further reason to deny it.

Someone culpable for taking their life who does not repent before actually dying does indeed go straight to hell. But even when someone is culpable, we should remember that some time elapses between that action taken to end my life and my actual death. If I poison myself, it might yet be an hour off. The Cure d'Ars once had a penitent who was uncontrollably sorrowful. He told her that her brother who had committed suicide by jumping off a bridge had repented after he jumped and before he died.

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 Post subject: Re: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Citizen
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anna1978 wrote:
I think, practically speaking, a lot of people do commit suicide without being in their right frame of mind. A friend of mine, aged 24 was dumped by her boyfriend-love of her life, person she was engaged to...she went home, went into her bedroom and took an overdose, her parents found her and she survived that time. In the weeks that followed she was so distraught that she tried to slash her wrists, then tried to hang herself. Her parents were trying to get her help, and she seemed 'on the mend', when one day she asked to go for a drive...on the motorway, she asked her parents to pull over, she wasn't feeling well she said. As her father did so, she opened the back door, jumped out and died instantly after being hit by a car. She was happy-go-lucky a month beforehand, but the being dumped triggered something in her...she really was on a mission to die, any way possible. It wasn't her, it was a mental condition, her emotions simply overwhelmed her, she thought life was over, so it had to be.
Another friend, a few years earlier had wanted to join the army but didn't pass his medical to get in. The day he heard, he was so upset-he'd never considered another career-he walked to the train-tracks and threw himself in front of a train. Had he given himself a few days to think about it, he would have realised life doesn't finish because you don't get to go into the army...but he really felt that strongly about it.
In both cases, it was 1 event that triggered the suicide...and I think their feelings were just so overwhelming they couldn't be pulled back from that. They were both religious, one was Jewish, the other the son of a Reform minister. But, they also felt the pain was too bad to carry on...I do still pray for them, and I do hope that they were 'out of their right mind' when they did what they did, and God will have had mercy on them.

Personally, I've had those impulses, and after 25 years of chronic depression, I do understand how it feels sometimes...and although I know my life belongs to God, that doesn't mean that I never think along those lines...just that so far I've successfully fought off those thoughts. But I do understand and pray for people who didn't manage that...


I have to respond to this. I suffered from depression from my early teens to my late thirties. Depression, as opposed to the blues, is an infirmity of the mind. The cure is medical and sprititual. I tried to commit suicide during this period a number of times. Unlike those with other mental illnesses, however, I don't think I ever lost my power of will and decision. Suicide is a grave sin against God and other people. Someone said it is the worst of sins. Suicidal thoughts and actions must be brought to the attention of doctors but most of all to a priest for absolution which I have done. And yes, we pray for them as the CCC tells us.

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 Post subject: Re: People who commit suicide
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:18 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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CanadianCatholic, I appreciate that for you your feelings leading up to a suicide attempt may have been a lot more 'rational'. When your mind 'crashes' suddenly (like in my husbands case when his business failed and we lost EVERYTHING) you don't 'think', something takes over inside of you, it's like being in a car with the steering wheel and brakes taken out...My husband now works with people who are suicidal (due to very serious degenerative diseases such as MS, Parkinsons etc) and for some of them the impulse to suddenly grab a knife and try to kill themselves is still there. FOR YOU it may be different, just like for me it's more of a slow-simmering long-term depression...I doubt if I'd ever take my own life, because I can rationalise and think it through...and blunt my impulses accordingly...but not everybody can. I think the main problem is when people think 'Well, this works for me, so it should work for everyone'...it's not because a certain approach worked for you (and I'm very happy about that, naturally), it would work for everybody-one size does not fit all. I think one day we will understand the mind better than we do now, and understand why some people are more susceptible to such impulses and feelings than others. Until then, I think we need to pray for ALL these people.


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