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 Post subject: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:43 am 
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When does uncharitable talk become seriously sinful?

Since I'm overly scrupulous, making good decisions about when its time to get my bottom into the confessional can be difficult.

I made a rather snarky and uncharitable comment on an internet discussion. In essence I said, "Great, their degree will lead to future contestants on Design Star." I wasn't speaking about a specific person but rather a degree program at a university. In retrospect the comment could have hurt many feelings....

So I'm thinking about the question posted above in both general terms and my situation in specific. I'm working hard to learn to tame my tongue in general...

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:47 am 
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It's seriously sinful when it's done with a desire to hurt someone badly.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:05 pm 
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I always enjoy robust discussions about stuff, even when passionate exchanges occur. But my pet hate of all is the use of sarcasm and contempt. I believe Matthew addresses it too in 5:21-22.

“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ (Aramaic for contempt) is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

We all say things rashly sometimes, but so much is mended by a prompt apology I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's seriously sinful when it's done with a desire to hurt someone badly.


What if it causes your brother to stumble?

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's seriously sinful when it's done with a desire to hurt someone badly.


OK - thanks father.

I've always wondered about that....

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:00 pm 
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pax wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's seriously sinful when it's done with a desire to hurt someone badly.


What if it causes your brother to stumble?

Forseeably or unforseeably?

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:08 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
pax wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's seriously sinful when it's done with a desire to hurt someone badly.


What if it causes your brother to stumble?

Forseeably or unforseeably?


When you ask 'foreseeably or unforeseeably' do you mean something that one is able to to foresee or something one actually kind of actively foresees? When one talks about causing one's brother to stumble in this context of serious sin, does one mean stumble in any degree of sin or in a serious way?

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:34 am 
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Were you aware at the time that you said it that it would be a major stumbling block for someone?

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:41 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Were you aware at the time that you said it that it would be a major stumbling block for someone?


I think that every child of God knows that any and all uncharitable speech will be a stumbling block.

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Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:01 am 
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His question was not, "Is it sinful?", but "How sinful?" We are not responsible for every conceivable result of our actions—only the ones that are reasonably foreseeable. It is wrong to speak uncharitably, but in general it is a venial sin.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:19 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
His question was not, "Is it sinful?", but "How sinful?" We are not responsible for every conceivable result of our actions—only the ones that are reasonably foreseeable. It is wrong to speak uncharitably, but in general it is a venial sin.


Are there any mortal sins left on the books :scratch:

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:24 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's seriously sinful when it's done with a desire to hurt someone badly.


What if you are genuinely wishing something bad on someone? You don't say it, but you have a silent hope (almost a prayer - though I hope the good Lord ignores it!), that they "learn their lesson".

I work in a call centre and when I deal with someone who is rude and knows "better" (usually the most ignorant) I do often hope that one day, they'll learn they were wrong. I don't mind when people don't do what I want (I'm in insurance), but it annoys me to no end then they want to argue with me that x is identical to y.

I regularly have the thought "no, it isn't, and one day I hope you have x happen to you and then you'll wish you'd listened". x been a major car accident or a house burning down or some such. If they're happy receiving an inferior product (I always achknowledge when it's equivalent or if I don't know) then that's cool, just don't talk down to me about how it's better. If it was better, it wouldn't be half the price.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:31 am 
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Jayne wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's seriously sinful when it's done with a desire to hurt someone badly.


What if you are genuinely wishing something bad on someone? You don't say it, but you have a silent hope (almost a prayer - though I hope the good Lord ignores it!), that they "learn their lesson".

I work in a call centre and when I deal with someone who is rude and knows "better" (usually the most ignorant) I do often hope that one day, they'll learn they were wrong. I don't mind when people don't do what I want (I'm in insurance), but it annoys me to no end then they want to argue with me that x is identical to y.

I regularly have the thought "no, it isn't, and one day I hope you have x happen to you and then you'll wish you'd listened". x been a major car accident or a house burning down or some such. If they're happy receiving an inferior product (I always achknowledge when it's equivalent or if I don't know) then that's cool, just don't talk down to me about how it's better. If it was better, it wouldn't be half the price.


IMHO there is wanting "justice" versus wanting "harm". Justice is good. Harm is obviously very wrong.

Pax or Father can better speak to the "justice" part....

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:01 am 
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I don't think such thoughts are spiritually healthy.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:11 pm 
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They're definitely not spiritually healthy, and it is something I'm working on. Unhealthy and sinful however aren't the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:45 am 
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Jayne wrote:
They're definitely not spiritually healthy, and it is something I'm working on. Unhealthy and sinful however aren't the same thing.


The other reality is most often, if someone does get their just desserts, you don't get any satisfaction from the justice aspect afterall. You are more whelmed with sorrow for their sufferings. Experiencing that outcome helps to abate the irritation in subsequent situations in your life, I find.


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:02 pm 
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ellietrish wrote:
Jayne wrote:
They're definitely not spiritually healthy, and it is something I'm working on. Unhealthy and sinful however aren't the same thing.


The other reality is most often, if someone does get their just desserts, you don't get any satisfaction from the justice aspect afterall. You are more whelmed with sorrow for their sufferings. Experiencing that outcome helps to abate the irritation in subsequent situations in your life, I find.


I don't know that I do though. You heard about the massive floods Australia had this time last year? That was my home city. I feel for those who were deceived by their insurance companies, but I don't for those who choose their insurance because they were "happy to take the risk". Well, they took the risk and they lost. If they just achknowledged that and then asked for help I'd be cool, but when they try and put the blame on their insurance company when they made the decision not to be covered, I have no sympathy. They opted out.. it's not their insurance companies fault, it's theirs. I'm not pleased they got their just desserts, but I'm not overly upset about their situation either.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's seriously sinful when it's done with a desire to hurt someone badly.


I'm just wondering, since the OP was about a general comment made in a discussion, whether this measure holds also for a comment made directly to a person in an argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:00 pm 
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In general, yes, though in a heated argument we are able to exert less self-control, which means culpability is likely reduced.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharitable Speech - How sinful?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:02 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
In general, yes, though in a heated argument we are able to exert less self-control, which means culpability is likely reduced.


Thanks.

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