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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If you want to think that Judas is in Heaven, you have to have some other way to explain what Jesus meant in saying, “The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

Maybe "that man" is any man that betrays Him?

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:04 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If you want to think that Judas is in Heaven, you have to have some other way to explain what Jesus meant in saying, “The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

Maybe "that man" is any man that betrays Him?

"That man" was Judas.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:04 pm 
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pax wrote:
beng wrote:
Xavier wrote:
I know the church declares people who are in heaven (e.g., Saints). Is there a list of people, or even one person, who is known to be in Hell?


Judas, Cain, Pilate and Arius we are sure to be in hell base on Tradition. When I said Tradition I meant the liturgy (for example there's an ancient liturgy where Arius is said to be in the abyss of inequity [if I recall correctly] and another said some bad things about Pilate which I could not find) and even Catechism (the Roman Catechism AKA Catechism of Trent asserts that Cain and Judas is in hell).


I would think Cerinthes, Marcion, Valentinus, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Henry VIII -- all Heresiarchs and at least the first generation who followed them.


In the un-ratified part of the Council of Basel (which later become the Council of Florence), Wycliffe was declared to be in hell. But then again, other un-ratified part of the Council of Basel approved of Gallicanism heresy.


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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:28 pm 
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beng wrote:
pax wrote:
beng wrote:
Xavier wrote:
I know the church declares people who are in heaven (e.g., Saints). Is there a list of people, or even one person, who is known to be in Hell?


Judas, Cain, Pilate and Arius we are sure to be in hell base on Tradition. When I said Tradition I meant the liturgy (for example there's an ancient liturgy where Arius is said to be in the abyss of inequity [if I recall correctly] and another said some bad things about Pilate which I could not find) and even Catechism (the Roman Catechism AKA Catechism of Trent asserts that Cain and Judas is in hell).


I would think Cerinthes, Marcion, Valentinus, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Henry VIII -- all Heresiarchs and at least the first generation who followed them.


In the un-ratified part of the Council of Basel (which later become the Council of Florence), Wycliffe was declared to be in hell. But then again, other un-ratified part of the Council of Basel approved of Gallicanism heresy.


And don't forget Jan Hus (may God have mercy on his soul).

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:39 am 
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The book of Jude does make mention of a certain group being in hell, although no names are given:

The book of Jude, Verse 7 wrote:
[7] As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:57 pm 
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We know that there are persons in hell. We know very little about whom. Satan of course is a person in hell. Judas is certainly in hell (not defined of course as doctrine, but come on). As beng pointed out the Church explicitly in the liturgy says Judas is in hell. Good enough for me (though there is a mixed witness in tradition about the other cases, like Pilate)

Core and his followers too.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:35 pm 
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Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Core and his followers too.


Agreed. That would be a hard one to deny, as it is right there in the Scriptures :fyi:

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:23 am 
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pax wrote:
Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Core and his followers too.


Agreed. That would be a hard one to deny, as it is right there in the Scriptures :fyi:
"Core" is Korah in most modern translations, incase the strange name confuses anyone. See the OT Book of Numbers, chapter 16.


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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:46 pm 
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Edward Pothier wrote:
pax wrote:
Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Core and his followers too.


Agreed. That would be a hard one to deny, as it is right there in the Scriptures :fyi:
"Core" is Korah in most modern translations, incase the strange name confuses anyone. See the OT Book of Numbers, chapter 16.


Edward Pothier


Ah, that name translation means something to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:52 pm 
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Come Be My Light wrote:
I believe they are prescribed to a particular punishment and that is what they suffer. It cannot be lessened.


Rather, they subscribe to a certain punishment and that is what they suffer.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:34 pm 
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DesertSailor wrote:
Who's in hell is not the Church's business. The Gospel says don't pull up the weeds too soon because the wheat will be lost too. Read Don Bosco and if that doesn't scare you onto the right path nothing will.


Which work specifically (re: Don Bosco)?

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:59 am 
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Jerome_2 wrote:
I remember pax posting before about Judas wanting to kill himself so he could repent to Christ in the Limbo of the fathers or something like that.


:scratch:

More like Judas was invincibly ignorant, received the grace of final perseverence in the last moments of his life, and, without knowing it, had an implicit desire for Baptism, and was thus taken up into glory.

Get with the program, bub.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:23 am 
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Xavier wrote:
Is there a list of people, or even one person, who is known to be in Hell?


The Church doesn’t have a list of people in Hell. But here is the description of the Hell, which three children saw at Fatima on July 13, 1917:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... ma_en.html

Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:16 am 
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Peetem wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Who's in hell is not the Church's business. The Gospel says don't pull up the weeds too soon because the wheat will be lost too. Read Don Bosco and if that doesn't scare you onto the right path nothing will.


Which work specifically (re: Don Bosco)?

Thanks!



http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/bosco_hell.htm

http://www.tldm.org/News8/realityofhell.htm

http://catholicism.org/bosco-dream.html

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:56 am 
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Martin Luther was excommunicated. Therefore, he is roasting right along side of Judas.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If you want to think that Judas is in Heaven, you have to have some other way to explain what Jesus meant in saying, “The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”


I fail to see what that specifically has to do with it..

Do you think if Judas had not been born then Christ would not have been betrayed?

... seems we've had discussions that have gone down this similar path before..

But let's turn the question around.... if YOU want to think Judas is in Hell, can you prove that Christ's statement above is a revelation that specifically supports that claim?


...(playing devil's advocate for a minute)..


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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:35 pm 
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DesertSailor wrote:
Martin Luther was excommunicated. Therefore, he is roasting right along side of Judas.


Apparently, then, so is Marcel (+)Lefebvre.


...and on this topic... didn't the Church lift the excommunication of someone particularly well-known, post-mortem?


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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:36 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Martin Luther was excommunicated. Therefore, he is roasting right along side of Judas.


Apparently, then, so is Marcel (+)Lefebvre.


...and on this topic... didn't the Church lift the excommunication of someone particularly well-known, post-mortem?

St. Joan of Arc, for instance

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:41 pm 
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Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Martin Luther was excommunicated. Therefore, he is roasting right along side of Judas.


Apparently, then, so is Marcel (+)Lefebvre.


...and on this topic... didn't the Church lift the excommunication of someone particularly well-known, post-mortem?

St. Joan of Arc, for instance

thanks...


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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:50 pm 
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St. Joan was excommunicated by politicians.

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