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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:35 pm 
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DesertSailor wrote:
Martin Luther was excommunicated. Therefore, he is roasting right along side of Judas.


Apparently, then, so is Marcel (+)Lefebvre.


...and on this topic... didn't the Church lift the excommunication of someone particularly well-known, post-mortem?


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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:36 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Martin Luther was excommunicated. Therefore, he is roasting right along side of Judas.


Apparently, then, so is Marcel (+)Lefebvre.


...and on this topic... didn't the Church lift the excommunication of someone particularly well-known, post-mortem?

St. Joan of Arc, for instance

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:41 pm 
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Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Martin Luther was excommunicated. Therefore, he is roasting right along side of Judas.


Apparently, then, so is Marcel (+)Lefebvre.


...and on this topic... didn't the Church lift the excommunication of someone particularly well-known, post-mortem?

St. Joan of Arc, for instance

thanks...


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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:50 pm 
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St. Joan was excommunicated by politicians.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:13 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:

But let's turn the question around.... if YOU want to think Judas is in Hell, can you prove that Christ's statement above is a revelation that specifically supports that claim?


...(playing devil's advocate for a minute)..


Yes. It's in the liturgy, in the fathers exegesis of scripture, in the fathers writings and in the catechism. Thus it's in Tradition, thus its in revelation.


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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:14 pm 
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DesertSailor wrote:
St. Joan was excommunicated by politicians.


Her bishop did that. One could argue that he was more of a politician....


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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Popes have unjustly excommunicated people too. Think of Julius II.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:51 pm 
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Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Popes have unjustly excommunicated people too. Think of Julius II.


Are you saying that excommunication by a Pope or Bishop for just cause is just a joke. I'm not talking about excommunications done for political reasons or done for vindictive reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:35 am 
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DesertSailor wrote:
Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Popes have unjustly excommunicated people too. Think of Julius II.


Are you saying that excommunication by a Pope or Bishop for just cause is just a joke. I'm not talking about excommunications done for political reasons or done for vindictive reasons.

Why are you worth talking to, as you cannot respond honestly?

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:09 am 
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Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Popes have unjustly excommunicated people too. Think of Julius II.


Are you saying that excommunication by a Pope or Bishop for just cause is just a joke. I'm not talking about excommunications done for political reasons or done for vindictive reasons.

Why are you worth talking to, as you cannot respond honestly?

Are you saying that excommunications are invalid?

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:21 am 
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DesertSailor wrote:
Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Popes have unjustly excommunicated people too. Think of Julius II.


Are you saying that excommunication by a Pope or Bishop for just cause is just a joke. I'm not talking about excommunications done for political reasons or done for vindictive reasons.

Why are you worth talking to, as you cannot respond honestly?

Are you saying that excommunications are invalid?

Again, nothing I said remotely implied that

I was merely making a single point. Popes even have unjustly excommunicated people. It does not follow that excommunication is always unjust

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:45 am 
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Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Popes have unjustly excommunicated people too. Think of Julius II.


Are you saying that excommunication by a Pope or Bishop for just cause is just a joke. I'm not talking about excommunications done for political reasons or done for vindictive reasons.

Why are you worth talking to, as you cannot respond honestly?

Are you saying that excommunications are invalid?

Again, nothing I said remotely implied that

I was merely making a single point. Popes even have unjustly excommunicated people. It does not follow that excommunication is always unjust


You just love to argue. I said Martin Luther is in hell because he died excommunicated and all the rest of this is a result of that one comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:53 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If you want to think that Judas is in Heaven, you have to have some other way to explain what Jesus meant in saying, “The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

After that happened, it does say that Judas repented.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:58 am 
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But DS, if Luther is in hell it is not caused by his being excommunicated. It is caused by his actions that led to that. The existence of unjust excommunications should be enough to demonstrate that the act of excommunication itself does not consign anyone to hell

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:19 am 
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Come Be My Light wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If you want to think that Judas is in Heaven, you have to have some other way to explain what Jesus meant in saying, “The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

After that happened, it does say that Judas repented.

No, it doesn't. He was sorry, but he didn't repent.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:00 pm 
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Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
But DS, if Luther is in hell it is not caused by his being excommunicated. It is caused by his actions that led to that. The existence of unjust excommunications should be enough to demonstrate that the act of excommunication itself does not consign anyone to hell


Even if Luther had repented on his death bed he would have been damned. If the Pope didn't lift the excommunication there is no repentance.

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:23 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Come Be My Light wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If you want to think that Judas is in Heaven, you have to have some other way to explain what Jesus meant in saying, “The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

After that happened, it does say that Judas repented.

No, it doesn't. He was sorry, but he didn't repent.

Matthew 27:3
"When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented"

That's what my Bible says!

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:57 pm 
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That's a bit of an odd translation. The usual Greek for "repent" in "metanoia," but the one here is "metamelomia," which is more along the lines of "regret" rather than "repent."

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:08 pm 
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DesertSailor wrote:
Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
But DS, if Luther is in hell it is not caused by his being excommunicated. It is caused by his actions that led to that. The existence of unjust excommunications should be enough to demonstrate that the act of excommunication itself does not consign anyone to hell


Even if Luther had repented on his death bed he would have been damned. If the Pope didn't lift the excommunication there is no repentance.

That is not true. For that matter, at his death bed any priest could absolve him of sins and the excommunication!

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 Post subject: Re: Who, specifically, is in Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:42 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That's a bit of an odd translation. The usual Greek for "repent" in "metanoia," but the one here is "metamelomia," which is more along the lines of "regret" rather than "repent."


which leads to the question..what bible is cbml using? :shock:

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