Login Register

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 19 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:27 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:20 am
Posts: 2090
Location: California
Religion: Catholic
Apparently the mystery of what started it all has been solved without God:

http://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/necessity.shtml

Figured this would be fund to dissect as a group.

Grab your tea and put your thinking cap on.

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:20 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:10 pm
Posts: 12828
Location: Inverted Cross domain
Holy cow, that was the stupidest thing.

How on earth is that going to solve anything is beyond me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:15 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:55 am
Posts: 66352
Location: 1.56381501 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
If that article impressed you, you need to read Edward Feser's The Last Superstition.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:31 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:55 am
Posts: 66352
Location: 1.56381501 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
BTW, the linked article goes wrong from the very beginning: "The argument is an à posteriori argument, and the conclusion is not claimed to follow with certainty." This is nonsense. St. Thomas is presenting an a priori deductive argument and believes that if his premises are true, his conclusion follows with certainty. Since the author of the page doesn't understand that, what are the odds that he understands anything else he's talking about? (Hint: Not good.)

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:41 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:10 pm
Posts: 12828
Location: Inverted Cross domain
The author gets a Dumb-Dumb award for writing this:

    The fact that many things exist when, if the argument were correct, the probability of objects existing is self-refuting since being must exist at the same time as these arguments in order to evaluate such arguments.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:44 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:25 am
Posts: 2534
Location: Atlanta, GA
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
It saddens me that professors of philosophy don't know better than this . . .

_________________
Just one example of what happens when you haven't been taught how to think:

Hen-Zee wrote:
How do you know that the rock is NOT alive?

Some papers I've written


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:40 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:30 pm
Posts: 4114
Location: Tennessee
Religion: United Methodist
An analogy. Yes.
Ok, the ice cubes in my freezer can exist or not exist. All of them at one time did not exist. At some point in the future the ones that now are will not exist (at least, as ice cubes). The ice cubes are countable, i.e. finite in number. They could not exist unless there was some Necessary existence which exists prior to and after them. Yes, the ice Maker.

No analogy really works, of course.

_________________
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- John Chrysostom, homilies on Galatians


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:02 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:34 pm
Posts: 27829
Location: Sine Domum
Religion: Roman Catholic
Dominic wrote:
Apparently the mystery of what started it all has been solved without God:

http://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/necessity.shtml

Figured this would be fund to dissect as a group.

Grab your tea and put your thinking cap on.

Whoever wrote this should be fired, have his degrees revoked, and be publicly ridiculed by academia

All I need to call BS was you topic heading (something about a beginning) and then to see the name Aquinas. The world could be eternal for all any of the 5 ways are concerned. They have zilch to do with any temporal beginning

As far as the link itself

Quote:
The Argument from Necessity:
Since objects in the universe come into being and pass away, it is possible for those objects to exist or for those objects not to exist at any given time.

All that Aquinas actually says is that there are SOME things which are contingent. Which is undeniably true, as long as you accept any empirical observation as valid.
Quote:
Since objects are countable, the objects in the universe are finite in number.

WTFFFFFF!??

Where on earth did this guy get off just making up premises that are irrelevant. 1.) St. Thomas nowhere, in this argument, talks about the universe being finite or not. It is completely irrelevant to his argument. This moron who should have his degrees revoked, might as well put in something about peanut butter 2) That would not be the argument for a finite universe anyways. He obviously has never once ever read a single word Aquinas has written


Further, Aquinas actually concludes to "therefore there must be some necessary being(s)" And indeed this includes not just God, but angels, are human souls, and in an analogical way prime matter. In othr words, the immediate conclusion is that some things must not be contingent. Even the materialist atheist concedes that...old style atheists would simply say matter itself is necessary and eternal. That is why Aquinas continues to argue, first, that among necessary beings one must have its necessity in itself, and then through the next 9 questions eliminates God being matter, being diversified, etc.

The third way is take from the possible and the necessary, which is such. For we find in reality certain things that have the possibility to exist or not to exist, since certain things are found to be generated or corrupted and consequently have the possibility to exist or not to exist.

(Note: Certain things, some things. He is not making any more claim than that)

But it is impossible that are things which are, exist in such fashion. Since that which has the possibility to not exist, at times does not exist. If therefore all things had the possibility not to exist, at some time there would be nothing existing in reality.

(Note: We are talking about things which have an interior principle of being subject to coming to be and passing away. If all things were such, then the whole would also be such...as soon as you try and claim some principle that is not subject to such principles, the admit the conclusion of his immediate argument)

But if this is true, then even now there would be nothing existing, since that which is not, does not begin to be except through something which is. If therefore nothing were a being, it would be impossible that something should begin to exist, and in such manner there would be nothing, which is clearly false.

(Note: Nothing comes from nothing. Anyone denying that either does not know what the word nothing means or is a liar and doesn't really deny it)

Therefore not all beings have the possibility to exist or not to exist, but there must be something that is necessary in reality.

(Note: "something" Could be matter, could be angels, ad nauseam)

But everything that is necessary either has the cause of its own necessity from somewhere else or not. But it is not possible to proceed into infinity in necessary things which have the cause of the their own necessity from elsewhere, just as neither in efficient causes as has been proved. There it is necessary to posit something which is necessary through itself, not have the cause of its necessity from elsewhere, but which is the cause of necessity to other, which all call God.

(Note: He simple invokes previous arguments against an infinite regress. The argument is not that there cannot be an infinity, therefore there must be a first, but rather it is there must be a first and therefore there cannot be an infinity.)

_________________
Ignem veni mittere in terram, et quid volo nisi ut accendatur?.... Quid autem et a vobis ipsis non judicatis quod justum est?

My Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:43 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:25 am
Posts: 2534
Location: Atlanta, GA
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
beng wrote:
The author gets a Dumb-Dumb award for writing this:

    The fact that many things exist when, if the argument were correct, the probability of objects existing is self-refuting since being must exist at the same time as these arguments in order to evaluate such arguments.

Made me think of this:

Image

If it's too small to read, the first box says "Intentional logical fallacies." The boxes in the middle panels say "Stupid uneducated opinion" and then "You are f******* retarded" - original pic here

I bleeped out the dirty words . . .

_________________
Just one example of what happens when you haven't been taught how to think:

Hen-Zee wrote:
How do you know that the rock is NOT alive?

Some papers I've written


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:35 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:20 am
Posts: 2090
Location: California
Religion: Catholic
*Removes tomato from face*

I didn't mean to project that I was impressed by it in the slightest. Was just noting what some of the fellow atheist/agnostics are harping over; that's all.

Thank you all for you wonderful criticisms. :mrgreen:

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:52 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:25 am
Posts: 2534
Location: Atlanta, GA
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
Dominic wrote:
*Removes tomato from face*

I didn't mean to project that I was impressed by it in the slightest. Was just noting what some of the fellow atheist/agnostics are harping over; that's all.

Thank you all for you wonderful criticisms. :mrgreen:

I don't think anybody was criticizing you, although I could be wrong. I think we were all lamenting the idiocy of the professor who made that argument (to use the word charitably).

_________________
Just one example of what happens when you haven't been taught how to think:

Hen-Zee wrote:
How do you know that the rock is NOT alive?

Some papers I've written


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:05 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:21 pm
Posts: 187
Religion: Catholic
God invented a universe too big for us to explore.
I wish he'd invent us a space ship...how I long to see the other planets.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:58 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:10 pm
Posts: 12828
Location: Inverted Cross domain
jac3510 wrote:
beng wrote:
The author gets a Dumb-Dumb award for writing this:

    The fact that many things exist when, if the argument were correct, the probability of objects existing is self-refuting since being must exist at the same time as these arguments in order to evaluate such arguments.

Made me think of this:


I don't get it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:22 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:25 am
Posts: 2534
Location: Atlanta, GA
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
beng wrote:
I don't get it.

Take, read, and be enlightened!

_________________
Just one example of what happens when you haven't been taught how to think:

Hen-Zee wrote:
How do you know that the rock is NOT alive?

Some papers I've written


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:45 pm 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 2:39 pm
Posts: 44130
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
Quote:
2.As reasonable as this assumption appears to be, consider Stephen Hawking's explanation of creation of matter and energy: Where did they [i.e., 1080 particles in the universe] all come from? The answer is that, in quantum theory, particles can be created out of energy in the form of particle/antiparticle pairs. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero. The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero.


Not sure what Hawking is talking about here, but if the total energy of the universe is zero, then there is no universe. I think it was demonstrated as far back as 1900 that infinitisimals (things that are infinitely small) cannot exist in nature.

I also note that he goes from "in a sense" to empirical fact without anybody blinking an eye.

_________________
We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:50 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:10 pm
Posts: 12828
Location: Inverted Cross domain
pax wrote:
Quote:
2.As reasonable as this assumption appears to be, consider Stephen Hawking's explanation of creation of matter and energy: Where did they [i.e., 1080 particles in the universe] all come from? The answer is that, in quantum theory, particles can be created out of energy in the form of particle/antiparticle pairs. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero. The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero.


Not sure what Hawking is talking about here, but if the total energy of the universe is zero, then there is no universe. I think it was demonstrated as far back as 1900 that infinitisimals (things that are infinitely small) cannot exist in nature.

I also note that he goes from "in a sense" to empirical fact without anybody blinking an eye.


pax, welcome to the somewhat "new" topic in the theist-atheist debate.... the "nothing."


Actually it's not an entirely "new" topic. It's a twist of the old argument in light of Hawking recent "discovery" that universe started from a "nothing," which is actually an expansion of a Quantum theorem where electron was produced out of "nothing."

Now, when those gnu-atheists heard that something could exist out of nothing, they cheer and congratulate themselves because they think they could put the rest St. Thomas' Third Way.

But the thing is, what the physicists meant by "nothing" is not a nothing. It's actually something. They called it "nothing" but it's not a "nothing" as we understand it.

For further insight: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/11 ... t-you.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:29 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:34 pm
Posts: 27829
Location: Sine Domum
Religion: Roman Catholic
The problem is that they don't know how to think. Okay so all the postive energy equals all the negative. Great, there is balance that might be represented as a sum of zero. But that is not to say that it is the same as nothing. Anymore than we say, when two weights on opposite ends of a scale balance each other that there is zero weight there. No, there is say 200lbs and each pushing a bar in the opposite direction with equal force. The force exists, it is being pushed, just inefficaciously

_________________
Ignem veni mittere in terram, et quid volo nisi ut accendatur?.... Quid autem et a vobis ipsis non judicatis quod justum est?

My Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:46 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:55 am
Posts: 66352
Location: 1.56381501 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
You were the one who was to bring balance to the Force!

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The beginning solved without god?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:25 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:37 pm
Posts: 5147
Location: Bergen, Norway
Religion: High Church Lutheran
Church Affiliations: Church of Norway
You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you.

_________________
Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο

“Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt.” — Paul Tillich

http://katolikken.wordpress.com/
English texts: http://katolikken.wordpress.com/tag/english-texts-2/

http://www.facebook.com/kjetilkringlebotten

http://twitter.com/katolikken

http://thecatholic.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 19 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: