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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:01 pm 
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Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
To smoke when it is adversely affecting your health in a notable way, without just cause, is a sin.
But here's the question. Does one need to have symptoms of the adverse health effect to conclude that it is adversely affecting your health? If I know that doing an activity is going to lead to an adverse effect, do I actually have to wait until the adverse effect occurs before it is sinful for me to do that activity? Wouldn't doing the activity with the anticipation of harm be pretty bad too? How is this different than say, drunk driving? If I drive drunk some night, knowing that it significantly increases my risk of causing my own injury or death, am I sinning? Even if I don't happen to get in an accident that particular night? Or is drunk driving only a sin if it actually results in injury/death (breaking the law notwithstanding)?

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:59 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
beng wrote:
One can't really compare smoking to cheeseburgers, bacon etc. Because to normal people, or even famish people, bacon etc is a good thing. But smoking, even one inhale, is dangerous and posses zero health benefit.


Granted smoking would not harm the spiritual self (ie. soul). But we are to care for our material self too (ie. body). And in light of the intimate connection between body and soul, if our body is unhealthy, the soul will eventually affected.


Many people will tell you that one bite of bacon has so much fat and nitrates that it is dangerous.

There is food that has no health benefits, a candy bar, it is not a sin to eat a candy bar.

Smoking tobacco DOES have proven health benefits.

http://www.forces.org/evidence/evid/therap.htm

http://www.livescience.com/15115-5-heal ... sease.html

Smoking lowers the risk of Parkinson's Disease.

Lowers the risk of gum disease.

Helps alzheimers.

Smoking lowers the risk of needing joint replacement.

Lowers the risk of obesity.

It has some benefit to the heart.



Holy cow. Didn't know that!


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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:54 am 
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ThyKingdomCome wrote:
Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
To smoke when it is adversely affecting your health in a notable way, without just cause, is a sin.
But here's the question. Does one need to have symptoms of the adverse health effect to conclude that it is adversely affecting your health? If I know that doing an activity is going to lead to an adverse effect, do I actually have to wait until the adverse effect occurs before it is sinful for me to do that activity? Wouldn't doing the activity with the anticipation of harm be pretty bad too? How is this different than say, drunk driving? If I drive drunk some night, knowing that it significantly increases my risk of causing my own injury or death, am I sinning? Even if I don't happen to get in an accident that particular night? Or is drunk driving only a sin if it actually results in injury/death (breaking the law notwithstanding)?

Drunk driving is not comparable (for the record, law not withstanding, how sinful that is depends on many factors: arguably when there were very few cars and they were slower, etc, it would have been usually a venial sin)

So, I assume to never drink a drop of alcohol, nor any grilled meat, nor use cosmetics, and presumably you avoid as far as you can being around cars

For example, smoking a cigar even every day does not significantly increase risk of bad health. One must smoke more than two a day for there is be any statistically significant increase in risk. Now everyone is different, and indeed there is a dramatic difference in people with regard to his. Genetically some are predisposed to being affected by nitrosamines and some are genetically resistant. The risk to the latter is far less. So one should use prudence. Do I easily become habituated to things, how has my family that has used it handled it...were they all ocassional smokers or were they chain smokers. How has their health been affected? Same questions that would be involved when there is a concern over alcohol, which also causes cancer apparently.

Fried bacon has nitrosamines, as do all cured meats. Rubber does too. Therefore you are an evil wicked person who is going to hell should you let you child near any rubber, or ever cook bacon, right?


It is very telling that when nitrosamines were discovered in everything from beer to bacon to lipstick steps were take to reduce it and the government accepts certain levels as non harmful. But we are told repeatedly that no level of tobacco smoke is safe, and that any tobacco is evil and dangerous, even Snus which has less carcinogens than many lipsticks.

Heck is that right? The lipstick you mother used? Up to 150 ppm nitrosamines. Standard cigarette smoke? 137 to 238 ppm. American Snuff? 127.9 ppm. Snus? 2.8 ppm. Now modern cosmetics in the US have dropped that level of carcinogenic nitrosamines, varying from 3 ppm to 50 ppm. Funny snus has to have that cancer warning and not your lipstick....

They did dabble in making a "low carcinogen" cigarette but the government sued (of course)

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:54 am 
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Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
To not smoke because one has an addictive personality, or because they don't like the taste or aesthetics of it is not a sin, unless (hypothetically) it was needed for health benefits (unlikely, at least in a first world country today)


Not unheard of though. Before I got sick (or better said, knew I was sick) I became a smoker. It is at the suggestion of my doctors that I don't quit. To do so would put my health at further risk.

Long term, it would be better for me, but in the short term, the risk of doing so is too high. \

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:29 am 
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beng wrote:
One can't really compare smoking to cheeseburgers, bacon etc. Because to normal people, or even famish people, bacon etc is a good thing. But smoking, even one inhale, is dangerous and posses zero health benefit.



Actually, that is not true either. I was listening to the radio not long ago and there was discussion on stress and how stress does more harm to the body than smoking, than eating poorly, etc. If smoking relieves stress, it most certainly can be a health benefit.

Lisa


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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:48 am 
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Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Drunk driving is not comparable (for the record, law not withstanding, how sinful that is depends on many factors: arguably when there were very few cars and they were slower, etc, it would have been usually a venial sin)

So, I assume to never drink a drop of alcohol, nor any grilled meat, nor use cosmetics, and presumably you avoid as far as you can being around cars


But I'm not suggesting that every single cigarette smoked would be sinful, just like I wouldn't suggest that every drink is sinful too. I'm saying that whatever the threshold is - whether it is 2 cigarettes per day, or whatever - where the research shows that it has a significant negative effect on health, that to smoke THAT level might be sinful.

Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
For example, smoking a cigar even every day does not significantly increase risk of bad health. One must smoke more than two a day for there is be any statistically significant increase in risk. Now everyone is different, and indeed there is a dramatic difference in people with regard to his. Genetically some are predisposed to being affected by nitrosamines and some are genetically resistant. The risk to the latter is far less. So one should use prudence. Do I easily become habituated to things, how has my family that has used it handled it...were they all ocassional smokers or were they chain smokers. How has their health been affected? Same questions that would be involved when there is a concern over alcohol, which also causes cancer apparently.
Right, so a person who is not easily addicted, wouldn't be playing with fire as much as a person who does easily get addicted, and perhaps that person's threshold for "sinfulness" would be higher than the highly addictive person's threshold. The few cigarettes I smoked where at a rate of once a week. I recognized the beginning of addiction in myself after about 6 weeks of this. If I had started smoking one cigarette per day, it is very likely that I would've gotten addicted and ended up smoking a lot more than that. Knowing that, and doing it anyway, without a better reason than "it's fun and my friends do it" would have been tempting myself to serious harm to smoke one cigarette per day. I can't see that as anything other than sinful. We've talked a lot on this board about not tempting ourselves with sexual sin - how putting yourself into a situation that makes sexual sin very likely is dangerous, and possibly sinful itself. This isn't different. Why would there be a different standard - if you are at risk for committing sin (like the sinful, immoderate, use of cigarettes), then putting yourself in the near occasion of that sin (which might have different details for different people) is not a good thing.

Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Fried bacon has nitrosamines, as do all cured meats. Rubber does too. Therefore you are an evil wicked person who is going to hell should you let you child near any rubber, or ever cook bacon, right?
Now hold on, that's a pretty inflammatory leap from "smoking can be sinful" to "smokers are evil, wicked, and bound for hell" don't you think? I'd expect to hear someone respond that way if I just told them that premarital sex was wrong and they didn't want to stop having it. I see this as an intellectual discussion about a particular activity, not a judgment on any particular person who might partake in it. I know there are smokers on this board, and I don't know if you are one of them - I'm making no judgement on the value or goodness of people who smoke. I hope that smokers can have this discussion without getting overly defensive, just as I would be willing to calmly discuss how sinful my problem with overeating is (and yes, I do believe it is sinful, and no, I don't believe I am evil and wicked).


Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
It is very telling that when nitrosamines were discovered in everything from beer to bacon to lipstick steps were take to reduce it and the government accepts certain levels as non harmful. But we are told repeatedly that no level of tobacco smoke is safe, and that any tobacco is evil and dangerous, even Snus which has less carcinogens than many lipsticks.

Heck is that right? The lipstick you mother used? Up to 150 ppm nitrosamines. Standard cigarette smoke? 137 to 238 ppm. American Snuff? 127.9 ppm. Snus? 2.8 ppm. Now modern cosmetics in the US have dropped that level of carcinogenic nitrosamines, varying from 3 ppm to 50 ppm. Funny snus has to have that cancer warning and not your lipstick....

Well that is where the threshold of risk comes in. First of all, I don't know what the risk is of putting something carcinogenic on your skin is compared to inhaling it, so listing numbers isn't enough to equate harmfulness. But if it became common knowledge that daily use of my mother's lipstick put me at significantly higher risk for cancer, and if I continued to use it at this unsafe level, would that really be reasonable? Honestly, I believe that this would be rather vain of me, and vanity is a sin. I believe this to be true of anything. God gave us our bodies to take care of. Why wouldn't we have an obligation to not do things that are harmful to it? Obviously, sometimes there are risks and benefits to be weighed, and "just reasons" as was mentioned before (ie. Jayne described the "just reason" for her to smoke now that quitting would cause too high of a risk). But take the benefits away, take the just reason out, and find the activity that is knowingly harmful to your body - how can that be ok to do to the body God gave you? It simply doesn't make sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:06 am 
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ThyKingdomCome wrote:
Doom wrote:
ThyKingdomCome wrote:
But doesn't the fact that most people who smoke a little (cigarettes, that is) end up smoking immoderately make it "the near occasion of sin?" And what would possibly be a just reason to smoke cigarettes? .


I don't think that is even true...I've known plenty of people in my lfie who only smoke a couple packs a month......American Indians smoke tobacco as part of their religious rites....and they have for centuries....and most of them never, or only rarely, smoke outside of of their religious rites....
Can you clarify, are you saying that all of the "plenty" that you know are folks who smoke in religious rituals only, or are you saying that you know plenty of people, other than American Indians, who smoke regularly, but only a couple of packs a month? I've been looking for some stats on this question and am having trouble finding them. I am only going on my own experience, which is different from yours - I guess some objective statistics would be useful here.

Doom wrote:
And this argument of your alcohol, in fact most of the time when people drink alcohol they drink it until they get completely drunk....that doens't mean that drinking is itself sinful....

Maybe using alcohol didn't make my point very well. My point was that there is no one would ever say that I drink immoderately, or dangerously, or have a problem with it - since I drink on average once a month, and then, usually only have 1 drink. Even if I upped it to one drink a week, few would judge my drinking to be dangerous or bad for me, aside from people with a religious belief against any drinking. So the same might be said for someone who has one cigarette a month, or maybe even one cigarette a week (I don't know about the 1.5 cigs a day that the people you know who smoke a couple of packs a month). That was the extent of my comparison with drinking. But what percentage of smokers is that moderate in their smoking? My opinion is that these are rare folks and that smoking a cigarette a day is much more likely to lead to addictive smoking than not. Again, I guess what we're missing is stats on that question because I don't have anything other than my experience and sensibilities to back up that opinion.


I am a moderate smoker.
There are months when I smoke six or eight cigarettes in a weekeend and then I'll go six months without smoking, because it is inconvenient or I just have no desire to. When pleasure is taken when inconvenient, it is not a pleasure but an addiction. Unless I can sit down with my wine in a civilized fashion or with a book, I don't bother to smoke in a hurry in the rain ...... Its not pleasurable to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:58 am 
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ThyKingdomCome wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
I have gone through times in my life when I smoked a pack a day.

Now, I have not had a cigarette for 9 months.

Wow, that's impressive!
kage_ar wrote:
I like to have cigarettes when I go out to a club to hear a band (don't have the $$ to go out...). I can smoke half a pack in an evening and then not smoke again for 6 months.

If we are going to have cocktails in the evening I will have a cigarette or two, and we do that maybe once every couple of months.

In your experience, would you say that it is common for others to be able to smoke like you do, or are you somewhat of an exception?


IMHO, the majority of people could smoke the way I do, but, society has them conditioned to think that "one drag and you are addicted and it is worse than a heroin addiction", so, they are either scared to death to have one cigarette or they just think "what the heck, I am addicted" and smoke immoderately.

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:16 pm 
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Cigars are awesome! I just finished a cigar, and drank 2 Guinness while I was at it! On the Columbia River, enjoying the sun, and listening to 70s and 80s music. Fantastic!

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:16 pm 
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double post...

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:57 am 
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Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
double post...
Based on the post you are doubling, I assume that you just finished TWO cigars, drank 4 Guinness, and listened to 140s(?) and 160s(?) music. {OK, the last two doublings don't make any sense.}


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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:32 am 
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There weren't any saints who smoke before the discovery of Christopher Columbus on October 15, 1492.

Tobacco grows natively on both Northern and Southern Americas.

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:16 am 
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Doom wrote:
ThyKingdomCome wrote:
But doesn't the fact that most people who smoke a little (cigarettes, that is) end up smoking immoderately make it "the near occasion of sin?" And what would possibly be a just reason to smoke cigarettes? .


I don't think that is even true...I've known plenty of people in my lfie who only smoke a couple packs a month......American Indians smoke tobacco as part of their religious rites....and they have for centuries....and most of them never, or only rarely, smoke outside of of their religious rites....

And this argument of your alcohol, in fact most of the time when people drink alcohol they drink it until they get completely drunk....that doens't mean that drinking is itself sinful....


I'm agreeing with Doom here.

I drink a couple of beers a night (on average); on CCD night I might have none or one (after classes of course!). Could I drink more? Sure. However I know its unhealthy and would likely lead to drunkeness.

The same applies to smoking. Just because one has a cigarette or two a day doesn't mean they can't practice the virtue of temperance and stop at two.

Nearly anything we do could lead to sin; too much eating, watching too much television and etc. About the only thing I don't see as ever leading to sin is too much sincere praying.

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Doom wrote:
ThyKingdomCome wrote:
But doesn't the fact that most people who smoke a little (cigarettes, that is) end up smoking immoderately make it "the near occasion of sin?" And what would possibly be a just reason to smoke cigarettes? .


I don't think that is even true...I've known plenty of people in my lfie who only smoke a couple packs a month......American Indians smoke tobacco as part of their religious rites....and they have for centuries....and most of them never, or only rarely, smoke outside of of their religious rites....

And this argument of your alcohol, in fact most of the time when people drink alcohol they drink it until they get completely drunk....that doens't mean that drinking is itself sinful....


I'm agreeing with Doom here.

I drink a couple of beers a night (on average); on CCD night I might have none or one (after classes of course!). Could I drink more? Sure. However I know its unhealthy and would likely lead to drunkeness.

The same applies to smoking. Just because one has a cigarette or two a day doesn't mean they can't practice the virtue of temperance and stop at two.

Nearly anything we do could lead to sin; too much eating, watching too much television and etc. About the only thing I don't see as ever leading to sin is too much sincere praying.
Even the last one, if it causes one to neglect duty, can be sinful!

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:04 pm 
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Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Doom wrote:
ThyKingdomCome wrote:
But doesn't the fact that most people who smoke a little (cigarettes, that is) end up smoking immoderately make it "the near occasion of sin?" And what would possibly be a just reason to smoke cigarettes? .


I don't think that is even true...I've known plenty of people in my lfie who only smoke a couple packs a month......American Indians smoke tobacco as part of their religious rites....and they have for centuries....and most of them never, or only rarely, smoke outside of of their religious rites....

And this argument of your alcohol, in fact most of the time when people drink alcohol they drink it until they get completely drunk....that doens't mean that drinking is itself sinful....


I'm agreeing with Doom here.

I drink a couple of beers a night (on average); on CCD night I might have none or one (after classes of course!). Could I drink more? Sure. However I know its unhealthy and would likely lead to drunkeness.

The same applies to smoking. Just because one has a cigarette or two a day doesn't mean they can't practice the virtue of temperance and stop at two.

Nearly anything we do could lead to sin; too much eating, watching too much television and etc. About the only thing I don't see as ever leading to sin is too much sincere praying.
Even the last one, if it causes one to neglect duty, can be sinful!


I had not considered that!

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:05 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:26 pm 
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"Smoking isn't a sin, it's just stupid." -Mother Angelica

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Come Be My Light wrote:
"Smoking isn't a sin, it's just stupid." -Mother Angelica

No offense, but Mother Angelica has no idea what she is talking about here.

People need to get off their brainwashed thrones and stop demonizing smokers and smoking

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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:18 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Saints who smoke
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:40 pm 
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Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Come Be My Light wrote:
"Smoking isn't a sin, it's just stupid." -Mother Angelica

No offense, but Mother Angelica has no idea what she is talking about here.

People need to get off their brainwashed thrones and stop demonizing smokers and smoking


Have you ever taken care of someone in their death throws of lung cancer - still caving a cigarette, or lighting up while they smoke through the hole they cut in their throat?

Mother is right!

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