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 Post subject: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:43 am 
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I recently talked with a co-worker concerning the Seder Passover meal. I didn't know much about it needless to say. We finally came to this question: Is the Seder Meal the same as the Passover meal, i.e. with the lamb? Then, was the "Last Supper" a Passover meal or a seder meal??? :pray:

Any help or advice on the subject would be greatly appreciated!!!

Jim

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:56 am 
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Jim wrote:
:?

I recently talked with a co-worker concerning the Seder Passover meal. I didn't know much about it needless to say. We finally came to this question: Is the Seder Meal the same as the Passover meal, i.e. with the lamb? Then, was the "Last Supper" a Passover meal or a seder meal??? :pray:

Any help or advice on the subject would be greatly appreciated!!!

Jim


Modern Jews do not have lamb. So while they 'remember' the Passover, and hope for a future restored Passover, technically it does not qualify.

The Passover that Jesus celebrated with the Apostles does not mention a lamb. In essence, Jesus himself was the lamb of the Passover.

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:04 am 
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anawim wrote:
Jim wrote:
:?

I recently talked with a co-worker concerning the Seder Passover meal. I didn't know much about it needless to say. We finally came to this question: Is the Seder Meal the same as the Passover meal, i.e. with the lamb? Then, was the "Last Supper" a Passover meal or a seder meal??? :pray:

Any help or advice on the subject would be greatly appreciated!!!

Jim


Modern Jews do not have lamb. So while they 'remember' the Passover, and hope for a future restored Passover, technically it does not qualify.

The Passover that Jesus celebrated with the Apostles does not mention a lamb. In essence, Jesus himself was the lamb of the Passover.



It doesn't mention the lamb because doing so would be unnecessary....that the Last Supper was a Passover meal is something we are told repeatedly...the question is whether Jesus held his Passover meal at the same time as every other Jew or if he was on a different calendar....

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:11 am 
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My actual more simple question is this: Is the Seder meal the same thing as the Passover meal? That may be a stupid one, but what can I say!

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:16 am 
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Jim wrote:
My actual more simple question is this: Is the Seder meal the same thing as the Passover meal?


Yes...but isn't clear if Jesus used the same calendar as other Jews in Jerusalem, there is a bit of a chronology problem with the gospels, the synoptics seem to have the Last Supper on Friday, but John seems to place it on Thursday....one proposed 'patch' to this problem is the suggestion that maybe Jesus used a different calendar and so had the Passover on a different day.

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:05 pm 
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Awesome. Then the Seder Meal is the Passover meal. That's the main thing. I'm not worried or will ever worry about samantics as far as the calendar changing, etc. Too much. Too much! :wink:

Thanks again, and many Blessing to you and yours this Holy Week and Easter!

Jim

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:07 pm 
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Jim wrote:
My actual more simple question is this: Is the Seder meal the same thing as the Passover meal? That may be a stupid one, but what can I say!

Yes and No. Many seder traditions are from the 4th century onwards, way after Christ. And further many are peculiar to Ashkenazim (European Jews, literally German Jews, but they spread out to Eastern Europe, Russia, etc). Even the traditions of the Mizarim (Middle Eastern Jews) have been largely superceded or greatly modified by the Sephardim (Originally Jews of the Iberian Penisula, who spread throughout the Islamic world and largely dominated the Mizrahim in being mingled. Though there are distinctions, in Israel both Mizrahim and Sephardim are under the same Chief Rabbi, while the Ashkenazim are not)

The Jewish Encyclopedia details the differences between the two meals, and some of the differences between different Jews (though it is primarily an Askenazic work)

ETA: Even the name "Seder" is not universal. It is the term the Askenazim use for the evening home service of the 1st night of Passover. The Sephardim call it the Haggadah. And all Jews refer to the reading that is read as the Haggadah shel Pesaḥ, or Story of the Passover.

There are variances country to country, mostly by way of addition, of what is read and sung. These includes legends not found in the Mishnah or Torah

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:14 pm 
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anawim wrote:
Jim wrote:
:?

I recently talked with a co-worker concerning the Seder Passover meal. I didn't know much about it needless to say. We finally came to this question: Is the Seder Meal the same as the Passover meal, i.e. with the lamb? Then, was the "Last Supper" a Passover meal or a seder meal??? :pray:

Any help or advice on the subject would be greatly appreciated!!!

Jim


Modern Jews do not have lamb. So while they 'remember' the Passover, and hope for a future restored Passover, technically it does not qualify.

The Passover that Jesus celebrated with the Apostles does not mention a lamb. In essence, Jesus himself was the lamb of the Passover.


I know it's not a strong argument, but Emmerich's vision said that there was a lamb. And Jesus Himself killed the lamb for the Last Supper.


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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Jim wrote:
We finally came to this question: Is the Seder Meal the same as the Passover meal, i.e. with the lamb? Then, was the "Last Supper" a Passover meal or a seder meal???
Both yes and no.

Yes: the name 'seder' is just hebrew for 'order' or 'arrangement.'
NO: They no longer have the lamb.

But we don't have much knowledge of what the Passover Seder was at the time of Christ.

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:30 am 
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Doom wrote:
Jim wrote:
My actual more simple question is this: Is the Seder meal the same thing as the Passover meal?


Yes...but isn't clear if Jesus used the same calendar as other Jews in Jerusalem, there is a bit of a chronology problem with the gospels, the synoptics seem to have the Last Supper on Friday, but John seems to place it on Thursday....one proposed 'patch' to this problem is the suggestion that maybe Jesus used a different calendar and so had the Passover on a different day.


or an equivalently problematic timeline: St. John seems to place Passover on the Friday and the synoptics tend to place it on the Thursday.

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:27 am 
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beng wrote:
anawim wrote:
Jim wrote:
:?

I recently talked with a co-worker concerning the Seder Passover meal. I didn't know much about it needless to say. We finally came to this question: Is the Seder Meal the same as the Passover meal, i.e. with the lamb? Then, was the "Last Supper" a Passover meal or a seder meal??? :pray:

Any help or advice on the subject would be greatly appreciated!!!

Jim


Modern Jews do not have lamb. So while they 'remember' the Passover, and hope for a future restored Passover, technically it does not qualify.

The Passover that Jesus celebrated with the Apostles does not mention a lamb. In essence, Jesus himself was the lamb of the Passover.


I know it's not a strong argument, but Emmerich's vision said that there was a lamb. And Jesus Himself killed the lamb for the Last Supper.


I forget....who is Emmerich?

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:32 am 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
NO: They no longer have the lamb.


I have never heard of a Passover meal that did not have lamb, and certainly all of the Jews I have known who celebrated Passover used lamb.....it is true that they don't raise their own lambs and slaughter them any more, they buy the lamb from the grocery store, which I guess would mean that it is technically not a 'real' Passover, but I've never heard of not having lamb at all.....lamb is more expensive than beef, pork, fish or poultry, but it is still widely available and not at all difficult to obtain....

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:51 am 
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Doom wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
NO: They no longer have the lamb.


I have never heard of a Passover meal that did not have lamb, and certainly all of the Jews I have known who celebrated Passover used lamb.....it is true that they don't raise their own lambs and slaughter them any more, they buy the lamb from the grocery store, which I guess would mean that it is technically not a 'real' Passover, but I've never heard of not having lamb at all.....lamb is more expensive than beef, pork, fish or poultry, but it is still widely available and not at all difficult to obtain....

Observant Jews do not have lamb at their Seder or Haggadah

Hillel held that the paschal offering (the lamb that doesn't get used anymore) should be eaten with matzah and maror. But instead of the lamb, since there isn't any, they use charoset. This is called the Korekh

Ashkenazic Jews (aka those that we mistakenly think are all of Judaism) do not eat lamb with the Korekh. Nor do they eat it in the main course, Shulchan Orekh. Fish and matzah ball soup. Beef brisket, chicken, and turkey are common main course items in the dinner of the Seder. Not Lamb. Not among observant Jews at least, who would hold that as wrong. You don't eat lamb because you didn't offer it.

Heck even among conservative and reform synagogues that I have known they don't have lamb. The only "seders" that generally do are those wrongheaded "Christian seders" as far as I know.

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:53 am 
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It's my understanding that some Sephardic Jews (Spain and the ME) will use lamb, but that Ashkenazi Jews (from Germany/Eastern Europe) do not. The afikomen replaces the lamb. Since most NY Jews are Ashkenazi, I never knew anyone who eats lamb for the Passover Seder meal.

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:13 am 
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Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Heck even among conservative and reform synagogues that I have known they don't have lamb. The only "seders" that generally do are those wrongheaded "Christian seders" as far as I know.


You can say that, but nevertheless it is quite true that I've never met an observant Jew who didn't use lamb.....maybe it is some kind of sectatarian difference, hell if I know....

And technically, neither the Passover, nor, frankly, most Jewish ceremonies and practices, are being done 'for real' and they haven't been done 'for real' for centuries, because doing them 'for real' requires that there be a functional temple....so in a sense it is all just a pretense anyway....

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:15 am 
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anawim wrote:
It's my understanding that some Sephardic Jews (Spain and the ME) will use lamb, but that Ashkenazi Jews (from Germany/Eastern Europe) do not. The afikomen replaces the lamb. Since most NY Jews are Ashkenazi, I never knew anyone who eats lamb for the Passover Seder meal.

That is mostly correct (though Middle Eastern Jews are a mixture of Sephardim and Mizrahim). Almost all Jews in the US are predominatly Ashkenazim, though a few "tout" a bit of Sephardic blood

They indeed have lots of differences. Ashkenazim hold as forbidden many foods that the Sephardim use in their Haggadah (Passover) meal. (e.g. whether kitniyos are banned, and what exactly are kitniyos). There is no blessing said over the 2nd and 4th cup of wine. Also the Book of Zorah and Q'ballah figure heavily in many Sephardic Passovers.

Some Sephardim allow lamb as the feature dish. Some have it, but do not eat it. Others do not permit it. Ashkenazic Jews (which means almost all Jews in the US and Europe) forbid lamb in Passover. The problem with speaking of the "Sephardim" is that after they left Portugal and Spain they mixed with the various Mizrahim communities and have, therefore, varying customs and even interpretations of the law. Yemenite Jews, for example, have many peculiar practices with Passover that differ from the Mizrahim of Egypt (where Sephardic influence was greater...Rabbi Moses anyone?). And then there are the odd Netherland Sephardim

And of course you have the outliers- the Beth Israel, who still offer animal sacrifices (and were accepted as Jewish by the Rabbis in Israel) and the "heretics", the anti rabbinical Karaites. Who is to say that there seder is not the closest to ancient Judaism?

The Karaites reject the Talmud and other rabbinical traditions. And they hold to the Tanach. Their seder is very different than that of rabbinical Judaism. They don't even have any wine!! They do have lamb though.

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:18 am 
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Doom wrote:
Solivagus in Mundi wrote:
Heck even among conservative and reform synagogues that I have known they don't have lamb. The only "seders" that generally do are those wrongheaded "Christian seders" as far as I know.


You can say that, but nevertheless it is quite true that I've never met an observant Jew who didn't use lamb.....maybe it is some kind of sectatarian difference, hell if I know....

And technically, neither the Passover, nor, frankly, most Jewish ceremonies and practices, are being done 'for real' and they haven't been done 'for real' for centuries, because doing them 'for real' requires that there be a functional temple....so in a sense it is all just a pretense anyway....

Doom, there are three possibilities

1. All the observant Jews you know are the extremely rare Karaites

2. All the observant Jews you know are the fairly rare (in the US) Sephardim, and further come from a country (Yemen for instance) that does permit lamb

3. They are not observant Jews and reject the Halacha.

If they are Orthodox, Modern Orthodox, or even Conservative who keep Kosher, they are breaking the Halacha if they have lamb.

Lamb is FORBIDDEN to Ashkenazim at Passover. It would be like you tell me that all the observant Jews you know eat pork.

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:12 am 
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anawim wrote:
I forget....who is Emmerich?


St. Anne Catherine Emmerich. A nun, mystic, stigmatist lived for years without eating, save Holy Communion.


http://www.jesus-passion.com/DOLOROUS_P ... CHRIST.htm


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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:40 am 
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And AFAIK, (most of) those who do have lamb only have a shank, and it has no 'spiritual' significance.

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 Post subject: Re: The Seder Meal vs. the Passover meal???
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Did not our Holy Father the Pope write that the Last Supper was most likely a todah meal and not a seder at all?

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