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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:17 am 
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sammyjohn wrote:
If reason isn't necessary (at least for some of us, the head and the heart), then where does that leave Saint Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas?


the question wasn't whether reason is good or beneficial. the question was whether it was necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:41 am 
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It is useful to bear in mind the reason St. Thomas never finished the Summa Theologica.

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:31 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It is useful to bear in mind the reason St. Thomas never finished the Summa Theologica.


But as much as Faith can make something so systematically rational seem like straw, it is still by understanding that rationality that keeps intense experiences in check.

I am just very skeptical of those experiences because all kinds of people see and experience all kinds of things and are so sure of them.
What would you tell Elwood P. Dowd about Harvey? You might tell him its irrational...

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:20 pm 
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I hate to beat a dead horse, but not as much as I hate being confused about a theological point...
:fyi:

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From the beginning, Christianity has understood itself as the religion of the Logos, as the religion according to reason...It has always defined men, all men without distinction, as creatures and images of God, proclaiming for them...the same dignity: to live a faith that comes from the Logos, from creative reason, and that, because of this, is also open to all that is truly rational.


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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:21 pm 
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:deadhorse

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From the beginning, Christianity has understood itself as the religion of the Logos, as the religion according to reason...It has always defined men, all men without distinction, as creatures and images of God, proclaiming for them...the same dignity: to live a faith that comes from the Logos, from creative reason, and that, because of this, is also open to all that is truly rational.


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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Mmmmmmmm ... horse.

Can you restate your question, please? Are you asking about epistemology, or faith, or what?

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:31 pm 
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http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 601AAoiPqW

I think the question being asked here is how we can appeal to logic as a check to what we think we might experience in Faith.

In other words, if a Muslim, a Protestant, a Jew, and a Catholic all tell me that I will find unity with God if I just have the Faith (according to the respective religion) should I be able to find truth in Catholicism and be able to discount the other using reason?

Once again, I am not being very eloquent. Somehow the meat of my question is not here. I think we have talked about this before.

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:45 am 
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You will be able to find better reasons to believe that Catholicism is true than any of the others can advance, but reason alone will not lead you to faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:34 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
reason alone will not lead you to faith.


That is what I was afraid of: that I will need faith to be led to faith...
It seems that what you are saying is that the sunglasses of Faith allow me to see the universe as it really is, but in order to see that this statement is true I will need to put the sunglasses of Faith on.
8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:56 am 
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Reason can take you to the place where having faith is the only reasonable thing to do, but it cannot actually provide faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:02 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:26 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Reason can take you to the place where having faith is the only reasonable thing to do


how can I arrive at that place without being worried about the truth of the Faith I would embark on?
People have faith in all kinds of things.

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From the beginning, Christianity has understood itself as the religion of the Logos, as the religion according to reason...It has always defined men, all men without distinction, as creatures and images of God, proclaiming for them...the same dignity: to live a faith that comes from the Logos, from creative reason, and that, because of this, is also open to all that is truly rational.


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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:36 am 
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Can you give me a convincing explanation of the Empty Tomb?

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:34 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Can you give me a convincing explanation of the Empty Tomb?


Do you posit that the Islamic explanation is simply irrational?

It just seems so easy: There is a historical mistake made by Islam and not by Christianity. I suppose it is necessarily so, since you would not become a Muslim if you knew that Jesus died, rose from the dead, and was assumed into heaven.

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:47 am 
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Will Storm wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Can you give me a convincing explanation of the Empty Tomb?


Do you posit that the Islamic explanation is simply irrational?

It just seems so easy: There is a historical mistake made by Islam and not by Christianity. I suppose it is necessarily so, since you would not become a Muslim if you knew that Jesus died, rose from the dead, and was assumed into heaven.


I would argue that it was irrational for Muhammed to repeat it be that he's not the first to posit that explaination. Muhammed more than likely got his information about Christ from a heretical sect of Jewish-Christians living on the Saudi peninsula called the Ebionites.

Their assertion is definitely irrational if you knew anything about Roman executions. Peter Kreeft covers the rational and logical implications at length in his "Handbook."

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:08 pm 
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I am a fan of Kreeft and Socrates Meets Jesus and (I might go to BC Law). I will look into that book.

Perhaps this is a naive question, but Islamic scholars might point to literature of their own which describes the Ebionites' position on Christ's death.

I am no relativist, but if the details concerning whether Christ died or not are as clearly logical as you are claiming... I just find it hard to believe that Islam could be wholly blind to the things you are describing.

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:12 pm 
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Is it honestly rational to think that the early Christians would have died proclaiming the resurrection if they knew better?

The supernatural historical events of Christianity were widely witnessed. No one except Muhammed was there for the alleged dictation of the Koran.

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Will Storm wrote:
I am a fan of Kreeft and Socrates Meets Jesus and (I might go to BC Law). I will look into that book.

Perhaps this is a naive question, but Islamic scholars might point to literature of their own which describes the Ebionites' position on Christ's death.


The only literature they will point to is the Quran. That's the only literature they have. Rational arguments will not sway them regardless of the logical validity of the argument nor of the irrationality of their assertion.

But remember also in some Islamic circles if you refer to "God the Father" it may cost you your life, if not at least an angry reaction, if that tells you anything.

Will Storm wrote:
I am no relativist, but if the details concerning whether Christ died or not are as clearly logical as you are claiming... I just find it hard to believe that Islam could be wholly blind to the things you are describing.


Their position is this: its in the Quran, so it must be true. Anything that might appear to them to contradict what they've learned they completely ignore or dismiss as a satanic lie.

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Last edited by A Ring Bearer on Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Is it honestly rational to think that the early Christians would have died proclaiming the resurrection if they knew better?

The supernatural historical events of Christianity were widely witnessed. No one except Muhammed was there for the alleged dictation of the Koran.


I would say that someone dying for an idea is not sufficient to say that idea is right or true.

But, I do concede that the supernatural events of Christianity were widely witnessed. And I generally have Faith in the tenets of Catholicism. I just go through periods of doubt and inability to defend my positions.

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 Post subject: Re: Faith and reason
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:41 pm 
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But they didn't die for an idea in the sense of an abstract proposition.

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