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 Post subject: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:44 pm 
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In his Summa (Ia, q. 52, a. 3), St. Thomas shows that in any given place there can only be one angel. Does that then mean that if our guardian angel is standing guard over us then a demon cannot tempt us? If not, why not? If so, how is it that demons ever tempt us? Are there times when our angels do not guard us?

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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Louis-Marie Flambeau wrote:
In his Summa (Ia, q. 52, a. 3), St. Thomas shows that in any given place there can only be one angel. Does that then mean that if our guardian angel is standing guard over us then a demon cannot tempt us? If not, why not? If so, how is it that demons ever tempt us? Are there times when our angels do not guard us?

Remember that angels are in a place only analogically, viz. through their actions. It is true that an angel and a demon could not both be acting upon the exact same thing at the same time. But that doesn't mean that your angel is gone is a demon is tempting you, or vice versa. For instance, perhaps the demon acts exteriorly as has happened with the saint, and your guardian angelhelps you through inspiration vvia your imagination. Perhaps a demons acts on you to excite lust, but your guardian angel acts otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Louis-Marie Flambeau wrote:
In his Summa (Ia, q. 52, a. 3), St. Thomas shows that in any given place there can only be one angel.


There were two angels at the empty tomb on Sunday morning?

I've always had a difficulty with the teaching on my guadian angel even as a small child. It seems to elude my sensitivity and faith altogether. I've exerienced a heavenly guardian presence through other people at important moments in my life but I remain confused about the teaching. Even when the angel appeared to Mary announcing her destiny, my image is of that heavenly message coming through another person.

I'd love to understand the whole thing though.


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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:03 pm 
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Malleus Haereticorum wrote:
Louis-Marie Flambeau wrote:
In his Summa (Ia, q. 52, a. 3), St. Thomas shows that in any given place there can only be one angel. Does that then mean that if our guardian angel is standing guard over us then a demon cannot tempt us? If not, why not? If so, how is it that demons ever tempt us? Are there times when our angels do not guard us?

Remember that angels are in a place only analogically, viz. through their actions. It is true that an angel and a demon could not both be acting upon the exact same thing at the same time. But that doesn't mean that your angel is gone is a demon is tempting you, or vice versa. For instance, perhaps the demon acts exteriorly as has happened with the saint, and your guardian angelhelps you through inspiration vvia your imagination. Perhaps a demons acts on you to excite lust, but your guardian angel acts otherwise.


But it appears that St. Thomas states that what it means for an angel to be "in a place" is to be acting in that place. Thus a demon and an angel both acting in the same place would be in the same place.

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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:08 am 
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Louis-Marie Flambeau wrote:
Malleus Haereticorum wrote:
Louis-Marie Flambeau wrote:
In his Summa (Ia, q. 52, a. 3), St. Thomas shows that in any given place there can only be one angel. Does that then mean that if our guardian angel is standing guard over us then a demon cannot tempt us? If not, why not? If so, how is it that demons ever tempt us? Are there times when our angels do not guard us?

Remember that angels are in a place only analogically, viz. through their actions. It is true that an angel and a demon could not both be acting upon the exact same thing at the same time. But that doesn't mean that your angel is gone is a demon is tempting you, or vice versa. For instance, perhaps the demon acts exteriorly as has happened with the saint, and your guardian angelhelps you through inspiration vvia your imagination. Perhaps a demons acts on you to excite lust, but your guardian angel acts otherwise.


But it appears that St. Thomas states that what it means for an angel to be "in a place" is to be acting in that place. Thus a demon and an angel both acting in the same place would be in the same place.

:scratch: Isn't that what I said, while pointing out that if they are acting on different things that means acting in different places? It is not like there is a 50ft radius around preventing other angels from acting on other things.

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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:09 am 
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Malleus Haereticorum wrote:
Louis-Marie Flambeau wrote:
Malleus Haereticorum wrote:
Louis-Marie Flambeau wrote:
In his Summa (Ia, q. 52, a. 3), St. Thomas shows that in any given place there can only be one angel. Does that then mean that if our guardian angel is standing guard over us then a demon cannot tempt us? If not, why not? If so, how is it that demons ever tempt us? Are there times when our angels do not guard us?

Remember that angels are in a place only analogically, viz. through their actions. It is true that an angel and a demon could not both be acting upon the exact same thing at the same time. But that doesn't mean that your angel is gone is a demon is tempting you, or vice versa. For instance, perhaps the demon acts exteriorly as has happened with the saint, and your guardian angelhelps you through inspiration vvia your imagination. Perhaps a demons acts on you to excite lust, but your guardian angel acts otherwise.


But it appears that St. Thomas states that what it means for an angel to be "in a place" is to be acting in that place. Thus a demon and an angel both acting in the same place would be in the same place.

:scratch: Isn't that what I said, while pointing out that if they are acting on different things that means acting in different places? It is not like there is a 50ft radius around preventing other angels from acting on other things.


okay, but (for instance) can't demons attack your mind? Not just exteriorly...?

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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:55 am 
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ellietrish wrote:
Louis-Marie Flambeau wrote:
In his Summa (Ia, q. 52, a. 3), St. Thomas shows that in any given place there can only be one angel.


There were two angels at the empty tomb on Sunday morning?

I've always had a difficulty with the teaching on my guadian angel even as a small child. It seems to elude my sensitivity and faith altogether. I've exerienced a heavenly guardian presence through other people at important moments in my life but I remain confused about the teaching. Even when the angel appeared to Mary announcing her destiny, my image is of that heavenly message coming through another person.

I'd love to understand the whole thing though.


Sorry to butt in here, but re: the angels at the tomb, I am pretty sure that they were not occupying the exact same space, and I think that is what's under discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Yes, demons can affect your imagination. But let us look at St. Thomas argument

I answer that, There are not two angels in the same place. The reason of this is because it is impossible for two complete causes to be the causes immediately of one and the same thing. This is evident in every class of causes: for there is one proximate form of one thing, and there is one proximate mover, although there may be several remote movers. Nor can it be objected that several individuals may row a boat, since no one of them is a perfect mover, because no one man's strength is sufficient for moving the boat; while all together are as one mover, in so far as their united strengths all combine in producing the one movement. Hence, since the angel is said to be in one place by the fact that his power touches the place immediately by way of a perfect container, as was said (1), there can be but one angel in one place.


Now an angel is in a place, not by being contained, but in a certain way by containing it, which may be compared to the way the soul is in the body, not as contained, but as container

Yet the soul and a demon can "act on" the same body because their mode of causing differs, namely the soul is the form of that body, while the demon, even if acting on the interior senses, is an external and efficient agent. Likewise, nothing prevent (as far as this argument goes) a chain of causes with several angels, provided but one is the immediately cause, nor is there prevented a demon and an angel acting on the same person, but in different respects.

With regard to whether guardian angels ever "forsake" us, St. Thomas answers that

I answer that, As appears above (Article 2), the guardianship of the angels is an effect of Divine providence in regard to man. Now it is evident that neither man, nor anything at all, is entirely withdrawn from the providence of God: for in as far as a thing participates being, so far is it subject to the providence that extends over all being. God indeed is said to forsake man, according to the ordering of His providence, but only in so far as He allows man to suffer some defect of punishment or of fault. In like manner it must be said that the angel guardian never forsakes a man entirely, but sometimes he leaves him in some particular, for instance by not preventing him from being subject to some trouble, or even from falling into sin, according to the ordering of Divine judgments. In this sense Babylon and the House of Israel are said to have been forsaken by the angels, because their angel guardians did not prevent them from being subject to tribulation.

From this the answers are clear to the first and second objections.

Reply to Objection 3. Although an angel may forsake a man sometimes locally, he does not for that reason forsake him as to the effect of his guardianship: for even when he is in heaven he knows what is happening to man; nor does he need time for his local motion, for he can be with man in an instant.



So in the order of divine providence, when God lets a demon act on a man, means that the man ceases to be protected insofar as he is permitted to be attacked. So presumably, as part of the divine providence that permits a demon to act on my imagination, my guardian angel lets that happen, he does not act on my imagination at the same time to repel the demon as long as the attack is being permitted

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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:17 pm 
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Sinty wrote:
ellietrish wrote:
Louis-Marie Flambeau wrote:
In his Summa (Ia, q. 52, a. 3), St. Thomas shows that in any given place there can only be one angel.


There were two angels at the empty tomb on Sunday morning?

I've always had a difficulty with the teaching on my guadian angel even as a small child. It seems to elude my sensitivity and faith altogether. I've exerienced a heavenly guardian presence through other people at important moments in my life but I remain confused about the teaching. Even when the angel appeared to Mary announcing her destiny, my image is of that heavenly message coming through another person.

I'd love to understand the whole thing though.


Sorry to butt in here, but re: the angels at the tomb, I am pretty sure that they were not occupying the exact same space, and I think that is what's under discussion.


I'm possibly being obtuse here but...

Quote:
Luke 24 1 -8 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: ‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ” Then they remembered his words.


Perhaps Thomas would say there were two men there but only one angel?

As I've said before, the whole angel thing is something I could never find meaningful understanding of.


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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:47 pm 
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ellietrish wrote:

As I've said before, the whole angel thing is something I could never find meaningful understanding of.


Angels are created beings.

They do not have physical bodies and some of them may appear to men in a way that resembles a man when it serves God's purposes.

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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:49 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
ellietrish wrote:

As I've said before, the whole angel thing is something I could never find meaningful understanding of.


Angels are created beings.

They do not have physical bodies and some of them may appear to men in a way that resembles a man when it serves God's purposes.


I feel it's so important to get the understanding as right as can be for the simple (like moi). After all Lucifer is a fallen angel and we know that he can appear as an 'angel of light'. New Age has a very defined concept of angels and people open that space to their angel ... a created yet disembodied soul who they can talk to and depend on in place of God. When we pray to a saint to intercede for us to the Lord, we know their place and there's not the danger of putting them above God. But what made Lucifer believe he was above God? Some force acting on him must have made him confident of that? That's what there seems the danger of if we don't have a proper understanding about the role of our Guardian Angel. New Age must be such a source of excitement for demons who thrive on our exagerated feelings about them.


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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:00 pm 
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I'd use non-corporeal instead of "disembodied"

The Catechism has a good intro to Angels:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p5.htm#328

I. THE ANGELS

The existence of angels - a truth of faith

328 The existence of the spiritual, non-corporeal beings that Sacred Scripture usually calls "angels" is a truth of faith. The witness of Scripture is as clear as the unanimity of Tradition.

Who are they?

329 St. Augustine says: "'Angel' is the name of their office, not of their nature. If you seek the name of their nature, it is 'spirit'; if you seek the name of their office, it is 'angel': from what they are, 'spirit', from what they do, 'angel.'"188 With their whole beings the angels are servants and messengers of God. Because they "always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven" they are the "mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word".189

330 As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness.190

Christ "with all his angels"

331 Christ is the center of the angelic world. They are his angels: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him. . "191 They belong to him because they were created through and for him: "for in him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities - all things were created through him and for him."192 They belong to him still more because he has made them messengers of his saving plan: "Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?"193

332 Angels have been present since creation and throughout the history of salvation, announcing this salvation from afar or near and serving the accomplishment of the divine plan: they closed the earthly paradise; protected Lot; saved Hagar and her child; stayed Abraham's hand; communicated the law by their ministry; led the People of God; announced births and callings; and assisted the prophets, just to cite a few examples.194 Finally, the angel Gabriel announced the birth of the Precursor and that of Jesus himself.195

333 From the Incarnation to the Ascension, the life of the Word incarnate is surrounded by the adoration and service of angels. When God "brings the firstborn into the world, he says: 'Let all God's angels worship him.'"196 Their song of praise at the birth of Christ has not ceased resounding in the Church's praise: "Glory to God in the highest!"197 They protect Jesus in his infancy, serve him in the desert, strengthen him in his agony in the garden, when he could have been saved by them from the hands of his enemies as Israel had been.198 Again, it is the angels who "evangelize" by proclaiming the Good News of Christ's Incarnation and Resurrection.199 They will be present at Christ's return, which they will announce, to serve at his judgment.200

The angels in the life of the Church

334 In the meantime, the whole life of the Church benefits from the mysterious and powerful help of angels.201

335 In her liturgy, the Church joins with the angels to adore the thrice-holy God. She invokes their assistance (in the funeral liturgy's In Paradisum deducant te angeli. . .["May the angels lead you into Paradise. . ."]). Moreover, in the "Cherubic Hymn" of the Byzantine Liturgy, she celebrates the memory of certain angels more particularly (St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, and the guardian angels).

336 From its beginning until death, human life is surrounded by their watchful care and intercession.202 "Beside each believer stands an angel as protector and shepherd leading him to life."203 Already here on earth the Christian life shares by faith in the blessed company of angels and men united in God.

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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Brilliant! I don't know why I didn't go to the CCC before. I usually make that first stop. Thanks for that bit of guidance, kage.


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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:49 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Guardian Angel Question
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:43 am 
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Malleus Haereticorum wrote:
Yes, demons can affect your imagination. But let us look at St. Thomas argument

I answer that, There are not two angels in the same place. The reason of this is because it is impossible for two complete causes to be the causes immediately of one and the same thing. This is evident in every class of causes: for there is one proximate form of one thing, and there is one proximate mover, although there may be several remote movers. Nor can it be objected that several individuals may row a boat, since no one of them is a perfect mover, because no one man's strength is sufficient for moving the boat; while all together are as one mover, in so far as their united strengths all combine in producing the one movement. Hence, since the angel is said to be in one place by the fact that his power touches the place immediately by way of a perfect container, as was said (1), there can be but one angel in one place.


Now an angel is in a place, not by being contained, but in a certain way by containing it, which may be compared to the way the soul is in the body, not as contained, but as container

Yet the soul and a demon can "act on" the same body because their mode of causing differs, namely the soul is the form of that body, while the demon, even if acting on the interior senses, is an external and efficient agent. Likewise, nothing prevent (as far as this argument goes) a chain of causes with several angels, provided but one is the immediately cause, nor is there prevented a demon and an angel acting on the same person, but in different respects.

With regard to whether guardian angels ever "forsake" us, St. Thomas answers that

I answer that, As appears above (Article 2), the guardianship of the angels is an effect of Divine providence in regard to man. Now it is evident that neither man, nor anything at all, is entirely withdrawn from the providence of God: for in as far as a thing participates being, so far is it subject to the providence that extends over all being. God indeed is said to forsake man, according to the ordering of His providence, but only in so far as He allows man to suffer some defect of punishment or of fault. In like manner it must be said that the angel guardian never forsakes a man entirely, but sometimes he leaves him in some particular, for instance by not preventing him from being subject to some trouble, or even from falling into sin, according to the ordering of Divine judgments. In this sense Babylon and the House of Israel are said to have been forsaken by the angels, because their angel guardians did not prevent them from being subject to tribulation.

From this the answers are clear to the first and second objections.

Reply to Objection 3. Although an angel may forsake a man sometimes locally, he does not for that reason forsake him as to the effect of his guardianship: for even when he is in heaven he knows what is happening to man; nor does he need time for his local motion, for he can be with man in an instant.



So in the order of divine providence, when God lets a demon act on a man, means that the man ceases to be protected insofar as he is permitted to be attacked. So presumably, as part of the divine providence that permits a demon to act on my imagination, my guardian angel lets that happen, he does not act on my imagination at the same time to repel the demon as long as the attack is being permitted


that makes more sense now! thank you, PED/SIM/MH ... ;)

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