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 Post subject: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:48 pm 
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It's almost everywhere I go. This "unity" above truth" is called charity today. It makes me sick.

Why is "unity" and "brotherly love" placed above the truth and doctrine nowadays?

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"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:52 pm 
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PDUBYA wrote:
It's almost everywhere I go. This "unity" above truth" is called charity today. It makes me sick.

Why is "unity" and "brotherly love" placed above the truth and doctrine nowadays?



How long have you been using that avatar?

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:40 pm 
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SemperFidelis wrote:
It's almost everywhere I go. This "unity" above truth" is called charity today. It makes me sick.

Why is "unity" and "brotherly love" placed above the truth and doctrine nowadays?


Matthew 22:35-40
Quote:
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Mark 12:28-31
Quote:
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:23 pm 
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torn wrote:
SemperFidelis wrote:
It's almost everywhere I go. This "unity" above truth" is called charity today. It makes me sick.

Why is "unity" and "brotherly love" placed above the truth and doctrine nowadays?


Matthew 22:35-40
Quote:
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Mark 12:28-31
Quote:
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


What are you trying to imply by responding to my question and observations by quoting these verses?

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"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Let me give you an example of what I am trying to say. The false belief of most persons is, "All we need is luv, luv, luv. Doctrines are what divide us. Let's all unite in love and push aside doctrine. This way, we can all be one.

Look...You have your own religion, spirituality, morality and doctrine; I have mine-even though it's completely different, I understand...but, that doesn't matter. It certainly doesn't matter what religion we belong to...We simply need love and...then...we'll all be united, one big happy human family."

That is not the Catholic Faith.

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"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:21 am 
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Hmmm. No more Hilary. I'll miss him.

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Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:25 am 
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SemperFidelis wrote:
Let me give you an example of what I am trying to say. The false belief of most persons is, "All we need is luv, luv, luv. Doctrines are what divide us. Let's all unite in love and push aside doctrine. This way, we can all be one.

Look...You have your own religion, spirituality, morality and doctrine; I have mine-even though it's completely different, I understand...but, that doesn't matter. It certainly doesn't matter what religion we belong to...We simply need love and...then...we'll all be united, one big happy human family."

That is not the Catholic Faith.

Do not be cynical about love. Jesus wasn't.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:38 am 
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torn wrote:
Do not be cynical about love. Jesus wasn't.

Don't use love to justify or ignore error. Jesus didn't.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:45 am 
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We really need a 'like' button in here.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:43 pm 
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It's ironic, SV, that both you and jac believe each other to be in error.

Do you each believe that the other is on the road to hell, or just that I am?


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:39 pm 
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torn wrote:
It's ironic, SV, that both you and jac believe each other to be in error.

Why is that ironic? Whether jac is in error about X says nothing at all about whether he is in error about Y. Same with SV. In fact it is even the same with you. The fact that someone is in error doesn't mean that he is in error about all things.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:22 pm 
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SemperFidelis wrote:
What are you trying to imply by responding to my question and observations by quoting these verses?


Torn was spot on in his quotes. Unity is not 'the pre-eminent Virtue' as is love. Without the pre-eminent virtue of love there can be no unity. As the opening paragraph of Vatican II's Decree on Ecumenism - UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO INTRODUCTION, states...

The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided.(1) Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.


St Paul from 1 Cor 1 10-17 urgently implores us...


I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.



The fact is that unity is our utmost goal and it is only through the pre-eminent virtue of love that we can achieve that. How do I love? Will Paul tells us that as well.


If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:15 am 
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torn wrote:
It's ironic, SV, that both you and jac believe each other to be in error.

Do you each believe that the other is on the road to hell, or just that I am?



At least jac *might* be able to plead ignorance.


SV

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:17 am 
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Love does not mean ignoring heresy. Love does not mean all your wrongs are overlooked. I love my kids but when they did wrong they were disciplined.

You can't 'unify' with those who those who continue to reject Truth and hold to error.


SV

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“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:46 am 
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SemperFidelis, I understand what you are saying. The term for the heresy that is driving you mad is indifferntism. In one way, it may seem like unity, but it does not resemble love at all. It is much more a philosophy of isolationism, in that everyone becomes their own island of belief. Very selfish and self centered. It is the way of the elitist, and it is taught in our school systems, from primary school through university. This is why I advocate for homeschooling so strongly. I lived in the woods with the hippies, and saw their all inclusive love. Not my cup-o-tea!

Now, as for you seeing it everywhere. Who do you surround yourself with? Perhaps you need a new group of friends. Start a Catholic Bible Study group at your church. Surround yourself with a good Catholic crowd, and these things will not be so prevalent.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
SemperFidelis, I understand what you are saying. The term for the heresy that is driving you mad is indifferntism. In one way, it may seem like unity, but it does not resemble love at all. It is much more a philosophy of isolationism, in that everyone becomes their own island of belief. Very selfish and self centered. It is the way of the elitist, and it is taught in our school systems, from primary school through university. This is why I advocate for homeschooling so strongly. I lived in the woods with the hippies, and saw their all inclusive love. Not my cup-o-tea!

That "all inclusive love" to which you refer is not what St Paul was referring to, so it's irrelevant.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:00 pm 
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SemperFidelis wrote:
It's almost everywhere I go. This "unity" above truth" is called charity today. It makes me sick.

Why is "unity" and "brotherly love" placed above the truth and doctrine nowadays?


Exactly who and what are you referring to? It's difficult to agree or disagree with something so vague. Could you be more specific?


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:07 pm 
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St Veronica wrote:
Love does not mean ignoring heresy. Love does not mean all your wrongs are overlooked. I love my kids but when they did wrong they were disciplined.

You can't 'unify' with those who those who continue to reject Truth and hold to error.


SV

What do you mean by 'unify'? You can agree to disagree with people, and they can still be your brothers and sisters, united in love.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:10 pm 
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St Veronica wrote:
Love does not mean ignoring heresy. Love does not mean all your wrongs are overlooked. I love my kids but when they did wrong they were disciplined.

You can't 'unify' with those who those who continue to reject Truth and hold to error.


SV


We all err. To err is human. If you sin, you err.

Luke 18:9-14
Quote:
Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else:

“Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else. For I don’t cheat, I don’t sin, and I don’t commit adultery. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’

“But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’

I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”


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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Eminent Virtue of Unity!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:12 pm 
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The Church torn, the Church. United in love is all nice, sounds great but we are talking about salvation here not puppies and kittens. Doesn't matter how much you love someone...that is not going to save them from hell.


SV

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“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


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