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 Post subject: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:00 am 
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My fiancee and I got into a discussion with her parents on NFP which then got on a tangent where we disagreed with her parents. Her mom made the statement that "God wills all children" so I asked "What about the children of rape and fornication? Was it God's will that they come into existence? If so, are you saying God used fornication/rape/sin in His will to bring about a life?" Her mom though that God completely willed those children throughout the entire sexual act even in the instances of sin but wouldn't agree that it meant God was willing sin, which He can't do.

My fiancee argued (and I agreed with) that God has bound Himself to nature in that if two people have sex, regardless of the morality of that sexual encounter, and nature works as planned then God will infuse a soul into that child because He has bound Himself to do so in the way He designed nature and sexual intercourse. We agrued God is only involved in the conception of children from rape/fornication in that He infuses the soul and co-creates with that couple, although He did not will that a child be born because then the child would be a result of sin so God would have to use sin in His plans.

We of course emphasized that God can bring about good in all circumstances and that God loves that child very much, but that He did not actually will that child to come into being since his/her's coming into being involved sin.

Her parents agrued that if God did not will for that child to be born via rape/fornication then He would not allow the sperm to get to the egg, or would have intervened in some super natural way to prevent the pregnancy. According to her parents if God does not prevent a pregnancy, then that means He willed the child to be conceived.

I hope this makes sense, please ask me to clarify something that doesn't. To conclude, if my fiancee and I are wrong please correct us. If we are right, or mostly right, please help us with more solid reasoning and particularly writings from the Church or well respected theologians to back us up - her mom asked for some documentation as it is the only way we could change what she "feels in her heart is right." Also, feel free to provide evidence on why we're wrong on the very slight chance that we are. :wink:

Lastly, her parents had difficulty thinking that God has bound Himself to anything. I pointed to the meaning of a covenant and various examples in the Old Testament but they weren't really convinced. Any direct passages from Scripture or other Catholic sources on God binding Himself to people/things would be helpful. Also, if God has bound Himself to infuse a soul if two people have intercourse and nature takes it course would you please provide any documentation you know of concerning that? That God will infuse a soul into a child at conception even if He did not will the child because the sexual act was sinful? We of course may be wrong as we were just trying to follow things logically, but we think it makes sense. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:10 am 
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To attempt to summarize my rambling post:

Does God will every child that is conceived? In that no child is conceived without it being God's will because He would intervene and prevent the pregnancy if He did not will for that child to be born?

If true, what implications does this have for rape/fornication? Even though He doesn't will the evil of rape/fornication, is He still willing or not willing life to come about by whether or not He intervenes to prevent a pregnancy? Does He never just let nature takes its natural course based upon the free will decisions of humans, such as in fornication, and then infuse a soul at conception since He is bound to do so when the sexual act is completed to conception?

I hope this made it a bit more concise.


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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:27 am 
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I haven't responded because you asked for official documentation.
However, fwiw, I agree with you. It's not that God wills it, but allows it.
I've had similar things told me concerning death. Example, "Your dh will only die in Afghanistan if it's God's Will." I had to bite my tongue because I knew the person was trying to be comforting. Yet, I greatly disagree. Our choices and others' choices have consequences. Sometimes those consequences are life or death.
My hope is in the Lord. I have faith that even in this messed up world He can bring good out of the worst pain and most horrible acts.

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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:29 am 
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SarahGrace wrote:
I haven't responded because you asked for official documentation.
However, fwiw, I agree with you. It's not that God wills it, but allows it.


I agree. God allowing something is different from God willing something.

Although I am looking for documentation or else my MIL will just keep "feeling" the same about this, I also welcome other people's comments without documentation. But if you have it, please supply it!


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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:32 am 
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My Baptist preacher that I had growing up explained it as God's perfect will versus God's permissive will. I wonder along with you what the official Catholic take on God's will is?

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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:52 am 
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If God did not will that child to be, he would not be. It is as simple as that.

God is the cause of all actuality whatsoever, and because pertinent here I will give you a shock. God is the cause of the act of sin! But not of sin.

We must distinguish. God causes all that actually is. Evil though is a privation, it is a lack of something that ought to be there in a particular thing. Blindness is a privation of sight. We only call those things blind that ought to see but don't, we do not call trees blind. Moral evil is a defect of the will. But still insofar as every action exists it has some aspect of good and perfection, and this is all from God. The evil and only the evil in the act is not from God. But then again evil has no per se cause at all. St. Augustine says that rather than an efficient cause, evil has a deficient cause. St. Thomas compares it to two seeds taking the same light. The motion of the sun, that is the light and heat is the same, but one seed receives this and germinates into a healthy tree and the other into a sickly one. The sickly one is due to some deficiency in the seed. Likewise every action whatsoever that we will is caused first by God, but the divine motion is received differently depending on our dispositions.

Also I take exception at your speaking of God "binding Himself" as if this were a sacrament. Or as if the soul were some thing in itself apart from the human body that it informs, or the body some thing in itself apart from the soul that forms it. God indeed does will the child, He wills the chain of causes that are involved here and now in the conception of the child, and He wills the acts insofar as they are acts (insofar as they have being) that lead to the conception of the child, but is in no way a cause nor does He will by His active will, but only permissively, the sin in the act

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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:07 am 
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SarahGrace wrote:
My Baptist preacher that I had growing up explained it as God's perfect will versus God's permissive will. I wonder along with you what the official Catholic take on God's will is?


I heard a Catholic priest explain that as well.

God can bring good out of evil, if we let him.


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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:37 am 
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Quote:
I asked "What about the children of rape and fornication? Was it God's will that they come into existence? If so, are you saying God used fornication/rape/sin in His will to bring about a life?" Her mom though that God completely willed those children throughout the entire sexual act even in the instances of sin but wouldn't agree that it meant God was willing sin, which He can't do.


I don't really understand the problem with thinking that God uses rape/fornication/etc to bring about good. God brings good out of evil all of the time. He doesn't have to "will" the evil (in the sense that you are talking about) in order to will the good that comes from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:40 am 
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Benedetta wrote:
Quote:
I asked "What about the children of rape and fornication? Was it God's will that they come into existence? If so, are you saying God used fornication/rape/sin in His will to bring about a life?" Her mom though that God completely willed those children throughout the entire sexual act even in the instances of sin but wouldn't agree that it meant God was willing sin, which He can't do.


I don't really understand the problem with thinking that God uses rape/fornication/etc to bring about good. God brings good out of evil all of the time. He doesn't have to "will" the evil (in the sense that you are talking about) in order to will the good that comes from it.


Well said!


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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:56 am 
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Benedetta wrote:
Quote:
I asked "What about the children of rape and fornication? Was it God's will that they come into existence? If so, are you saying God used fornication/rape/sin in His will to bring about a life?" Her mom though that God completely willed those children throughout the entire sexual act even in the instances of sin but wouldn't agree that it meant God was willing sin, which He can't do.


I don't really understand the problem with thinking that God uses rape/fornication/etc to bring about good. God brings good out of evil all of the time. He doesn't have to "will" the evil (in the sense that you are talking about) in order to will the good that comes from it.


I don't disagree with anything you said, nor do I think anything I said contradicts what you said (at least in my mind) so I think I failed to properly articulate my thoughts. In fact, I stated God can bring good out of evil in my original post.


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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:01 am 
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I think your future in-laws are correct. If God does not will a child to be, then it will not be.

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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:07 am 
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Pepsuber wrote:
I think your future in-laws are correct. If God does not will a child to be, then it will not be.


After reading PED's post I wonder if my fiancee and I were talking past her parents... I think she and I were arguing God's permissive will is involved while they were arguing it is His active will, although neither one of us used those terms so neither one of our meanings was clear.

So with the distinction of active vs. passive will do you still think they are correct? That God actively willed the birth of a child from rape/fornication rather than passively willed it?

ETA: I meant "permissive" not "passive".


Last edited by CardsHockey on Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:11 am 
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I don't think passivity is an attribute of God.

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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:17 am 
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Pepsuber wrote:
I don't think passivity is an attribute of God.


Would you disagree with PED's last sentence, or am I reading PED's post wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:35 am 
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CardsHockey wrote:
Pepsuber wrote:
I think your future in-laws are correct. If God does not will a child to be, then it will not be.


After reading PED's post I wonder if my fiancee and I were talking past her parents... I think she and I were arguing God's permissive will is involved while they were arguing it is His active will, although neither one of us used those terms so neither one of our meanings was clear.

So with the distinction of active vs. passive will do you still think they are correct? That God actively willed the birth of a child from rape/fornication rather than passively willed it?


Maybe by "passive will" you mean "permissive will"? I don't know the correct terms. But I think it's more than just permissive. I don't see why God needs to "actively" will rape in order to "actively" will the conception that results.

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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:38 am 
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Benedetta wrote:
CardsHockey wrote:
Pepsuber wrote:
I think your future in-laws are correct. If God does not will a child to be, then it will not be.


After reading PED's post I wonder if my fiancee and I were talking past her parents... I think she and I were arguing God's permissive will is involved while they were arguing it is His active will, although neither one of us used those terms so neither one of our meanings was clear.

So with the distinction of active vs. passive will do you still think they are correct? That God actively willed the birth of a child from rape/fornication rather than passively willed it?


Maybe by "passive will" you mean "permissive will"? I don't know the correct terms. But I think it's more than just permissive. I don't see why God needs to "actively" will rape in order to "actively" will the conception that results.


Yes! I definitely meant "permissive" not "passive"! My bad!


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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:48 am 
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CardsHockey wrote:
Pepsuber wrote:
I don't think passivity is an attribute of God.


Would you disagree with PED's last sentence, or am I reading PED's post wrong?


No, I would not disagree. PED points out that God wills the acts that lead to conception (if He did not, those acts would not occur), but not the sin in the acts. So I think we can definitely say that God actively wills the conception of the child conceived in rape or incest.

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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:04 am 
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Pepsuber wrote:
CardsHockey wrote:
Pepsuber wrote:
I don't think passivity is an attribute of God.


Would you disagree with PED's last sentence, or am I reading PED's post wrong?


No, I would not disagree. PED points out that God wills the acts that lead to conception (if He did not, those acts would not occur), but not the sin in the acts. So I think we can definitely say that God actively wills the conception of the child conceived in rape or incest.


So what part of the rape does God will exactly?

Does He will the sexual act in general, but not the improper use of it? So that it can be said anytime the sexual act is engaged in God actively wills it but not any sin that may happen to be involved in it? So, therefore, He always wills the conception of the resulting child regardless of the morality of the sexual act since He wills the sexual act in general?

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this.


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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:06 am 
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Did God will the crucifixion of his only begotten Son? That is a far worse evil. And yet the greatest good came out of that evil.


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 Post subject: Re: Does God will the children of fornication/rape?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:22 am 
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AdAltareDei wrote:
Did God will the crucifixion of his only begotten Son? That is a far worse evil. And yet the greatest good came out of that evil.


Are you suggesting God actively wills evil when He knows a good end will come out of it? So, for instance, when a baby will be conceived God wills that rape, but when a baby is not conceived the rape is not willed?

Not that I don't understand the valid point you made... I'm still just trying to flesh this out a bit more.


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