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 Post subject: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:58 pm 
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Our Lady of Fatima said: "Many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray for them and make sacrifices for them."



Jack Johnson the unlucky man

    -Evil
    -Not prayed for
    -Went to Hell



John Jackson the fortunate


    -Evil
    -Was prayed for by many people
    -Went to Heaven

:scratch:


Did John Jackson go to Heaven simply because someone prayed for him?
Does it make God unjust?

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Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword?

... neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:04 pm 
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Everyone deserves to go to hell, no one deserves anything else.....the answer to your objection is found in Matthew 20:1-16, the parable of the workers in the vineyard.

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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:26 pm 
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John Jackson went to Hell because he freely chose to reject God's offer of salvation.

Jack Johnson went to Heaven because he freely chose to accept God's offer of salvation.

How God's grace and our prayers work in that process is still the subject of detailed technical theological arguments. I suggest that the arguments are not important and that we simply pray with the understanding that Our Lady has instructed us to do so and that she would not have given us that instruction without good reason.

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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:29 pm 
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There's another good argument against birth control.

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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Everyone deserves to go to hell, no one deserves anything else.....the answer to your objection is found in Matthew 20:1-16, the parable of the workers in the vineyard.


If you mean hell in the sense of eternal torment then I profoundly disagree. I am wondering where you are getting that everyone deserves hell from Matthew20:1-16?

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Seventeenth rule. Similarly, we should not talk of grace at such length and with such insistence as to poison people's attitude to free will. Thus we should speak about faith and grace, as far as it is possible with God's help, in a way that results in a greater praise of his Divine Majesty, but not in such a way and with such expressions (especially in times as dangerous as ours) that good works and free will come to be undermined or held for nothing. -Saint Ignatius -The Spiritual Exercises


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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:39 pm 
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Jerome_2 wrote:
Doom wrote:
Everyone deserves to go to hell, no one deserves anything else.....the answer to your objection is found in Matthew 20:1-16, the parable of the workers in the vineyard.


If you mean hell in the sense of eternal torment then I profoundly disagree. I am wondering where you are getting that everyone deserves hell from Matthew20:1-16?



:scratch:


The point of the parable of the workers in the vineyard is that salvation is solely due to the grace of God and he can give his grace to whomever he chooses, and we have no right to complain about it because 'am I not free to do what I want with my own money?' The implication of the question in the OP is that salvation is owed to us, the point of the workers in the vineyard is that God does not owe us a thing, he gives because he is generous, not because we have done anything to deserve it.

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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Doom wrote:
he gives because he is generous, not because we have done anything to deserve it.



But, can He be both "unequally generous" and just?

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Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword?

... neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:57 pm 
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fames wrote:
Doom wrote:
he gives because he is generous, not because we have done anything to deserve it.



But, can He be both "unequally generous" and just?




Yes, that is exactly the point of the parable....'equality' is a human concept, not a divine one.

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Therefore.....let it burn.


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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:58 pm 
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No one has a claim on God's mercy, so He is not unjust in giving it to whomever He chooses.

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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:08 pm 
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Doom wrote:
The point of the parable of the workers in the vineyard is that salvation is solely due to the grace of God and he can give his grace to whomever he chooses, and we have no right to complain about it because 'am I not free to do what I want with my own money?' The implication of the question in the OP is that salvation is owed to us, the point of the workers in the vineyard is that God does not owe us a thing, he gives because he is generous, not because we have done anything to deserve it.


I didn't get that implication from the opening post. There are a couple of interpretations of Matthew20:1-16, but one of them that makes sense to me is the Gentiles being asked to work last(becoming part of the Church) and being rewarded the same as the Jews who were asked to work first through the Mosiac law. Although I suspect there is a bit of a mystery concerning verse 16.

Matthew20:16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last.’

The last(Gentiles) will be first(to convert under the New Covenant), and the first(Jews) will be the last(to convert under the New Covenant).

I suspect it's something like that, but it's interpreted several different ways.

Also I don't think Christ would have used the analogy of the labourers in the vineyard if the labourers did not expect a reward. Given other verses such as Luke10:7, 1Timothy5:18 etc.

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Seventeenth rule. Similarly, we should not talk of grace at such length and with such insistence as to poison people's attitude to free will. Thus we should speak about faith and grace, as far as it is possible with God's help, in a way that results in a greater praise of his Divine Majesty, but not in such a way and with such expressions (especially in times as dangerous as ours) that good works and free will come to be undermined or held for nothing. -Saint Ignatius -The Spiritual Exercises


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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:37 pm 
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fames wrote:
Our Lady of Fatima said: "Many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray for them and make sacrifices for them."

Jack Johnson the unlucky man

    -Evil
    -Not prayed for
    -Went to Hell


John Jackson the fortunate


    -Evil
    -Was prayed for by many people
    -Went to Heaven

:scratch:

Did John Jackson go to Heaven simply because someone prayed for him?
Does it make God unjust?


I share your confusion over this. There was One Who made the ultimate sacrifice for John Jackson. How does that need the addition of our prayers for John regarding going to/not going to hell?

As regards purgation, that is another story, and I can understand that there are favorable effects upon another's soul by my prayers. But such presupposes that the person I am praying for is already one who has received the forgiveness and mercy of God and is assured of eventually going to Heaven. To suppose that my prayers are in some way affect whether or not a person is an inheritor of eternal life poses a real problem for me.

Here's another problem: Suppose I pray and make sacrifices for my son, who at this time wants absolutely nothing to do with the Christian faith or with God. Let us suppose that he continues in this manner and dies unrepentant. What he has chosen, what he is ontologically, goes into eternity with him to meet Christ. That is, if he hates God, by what premise does one believe that after death he will change into one who loves God? In Eastern thought, the idea borders on preposterous.

The only way this might be said to happen would be that Our Lady meant that if we pray and sacrifice for another, such as my son, God will somehow intervene before he dies and bring him to repentance. But then, being God, He does not need my prayers to do so, does He? Why then are my prayers in this regard of any importance to my son's salvation? Certainly, the One Who endured the horrors of the Cross loves my son far more than I do and wishes his salvation much more than I do.

So then we have to factor in my son's free will -- his choice to refuse God and, as I have heard theologians say, God's response of respecting that decision rather than forcing the issue by making my son believe against his will. How then do my prayers factor into this at all if my son has free will?

Do they bend the arm of the Almighty to change my son? Or do they somehow affect my son directly so that he will come to a point of repentance? And if so, again I ask why because God, being All-Powerful, does not need my prayers to affect my son's disposition, does He?

In answer to the last question, the Holy One of Israel is just in all that He does. Our lack of comprehension of His ways in no way implies injustice on His part. We are blind, slow of understanding and dim of sight. God is just.


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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:40 pm 
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You're over thinking this...a parable is not a kind of code to be 'cracked' to unlock a hidden meaning, where every detail stands, in a 1-1 correspondence, to some other thing.......

The point of this parable, like every parable is, is to be found in its conclusion....'I did you no wrong, did you not agree with me to work for a denarius? Take what is young, and go on your way, I will give unto these, even as I have given to you, am I not free to do what I want with my own money?'

The point is that they put in one day of work, and got one day of pay....the vineyard owner fulfilled his agreement to the letter, the fact that he also chose to give the same amount to someone else who did not work as long, is his business.....he has not, in any way, harmed or cheated the people who worked all day long....if God is more generous with someone else than he is with you, you have no right to complain...

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and they deserve to get it good and hard" HL Mencken

Therefore.....let it burn.


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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:47 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
No one has a claim on God's mercy, so He is not unjust in giving it to whomever He chooses.



You seem to be better at expressing my thoughts than I am....no doubt that's why you earn the big bucks.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and they deserve to get it good and hard" HL Mencken

Therefore.....let it burn.


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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:04 pm 
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Doom wrote:
if God is more generous with someone else than he is with you, you have no right to complain...


This I agree with, I was just curious where you were extracting we all deserve hell from the parable when it isn't there?

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Seventeenth rule. Similarly, we should not talk of grace at such length and with such insistence as to poison people's attitude to free will. Thus we should speak about faith and grace, as far as it is possible with God's help, in a way that results in a greater praise of his Divine Majesty, but not in such a way and with such expressions (especially in times as dangerous as ours) that good works and free will come to be undermined or held for nothing. -Saint Ignatius -The Spiritual Exercises


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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:05 pm 
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No one merits salvation. In one case, God granted mercy through the prayers. That is, the man converted to God, through graces, which were asked for by another.

You don't die in sin, but because of someone else's prayer make it. That would be preposterous.

God chooses to utilize prayers a means because it perfects the one praying and united him to the Divine Intention. So yeah, God doesn't need prayers, we do.

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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:08 pm 
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Jerome_2 wrote:
Doom wrote:
if God is more generous with someone else than he is with you, you have no right to complain...


This I agree with, I was just curious where you were extracting we all deserve hell from the parable when it isn't there?


I didn't say that parable said that everyone deserves to go to hell...however the fact that everyone deserves hell is one of the most basic facts of the faith....

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and they deserve to get it good and hard" HL Mencken

Therefore.....let it burn.


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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:17 pm 
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Don't want to hijack this thread, so I might make another one, but could you define what you mean by hell? Do you mean the place of torment that the damned go, or do you mean just in a general sense, as in Abraham's bosom where a kind of natural happiness was enjoyed?

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Seventeenth rule. Similarly, we should not talk of grace at such length and with such insistence as to poison people's attitude to free will. Thus we should speak about faith and grace, as far as it is possible with God's help, in a way that results in a greater praise of his Divine Majesty, but not in such a way and with such expressions (especially in times as dangerous as ours) that good works and free will come to be undermined or held for nothing. -Saint Ignatius -The Spiritual Exercises


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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Jerome_2 wrote:
Don't want to hijack this thread, so I might make another one, but could you define what you mean by hell? Do you mean the place of torment that the damned go, or do you mean just in a general sense, as in Abraham's bosom where a kind of natural happiness was enjoyed?


I mean eternal damnation....if you don't like the wording 'everyone deserves hell', then reword is more positively 'no one deserves heaven'.....if we deserved to be saved, then Christ's work was pointless....and our salvation is not a result of grace....

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and they deserve to get it good and hard" HL Mencken

Therefore.....let it burn.


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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:12 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
fames wrote:
Our Lady of Fatima said: "Many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray for them and make sacrifices for them."

Jack Johnson the unlucky man

    -Evil
    -Not prayed for
    -Went to Hell


John Jackson the fortunate


    -Evil
    -Was prayed for by many people
    -Went to Heaven

:scratch:

Did John Jackson go to Heaven simply because someone prayed for him?
Does it make God unjust?


I share your confusion over this. There was One Who made the ultimate sacrifice for John Jackson. How does that need the addition of our prayers for John regarding going to/not going to hell?

As regards purgation, that is another story, and I can understand that there are favorable effects upon another's soul by my prayers. But such presupposes that the person I am praying for is already one who has received the forgiveness and mercy of God and is assured of eventually going to Heaven. To suppose that my prayers are in some way affect whether or not a person is an inheritor of eternal life poses a real problem for me.

Here's another problem: Suppose I pray and make sacrifices for my son, who at this time wants absolutely nothing to do with the Christian faith or with God. Let us suppose that he continues in this manner and dies unrepentant. What he has chosen, what he is ontologically, goes into eternity with him to meet Christ. That is, if he hates God, by what premise does one believe that after death he will change into one who loves God? In Eastern thought, the idea borders on preposterous.

The only way this might be said to happen would be that Our Lady meant that if we pray and sacrifice for another, such as my son, God will somehow intervene before he dies and bring him to repentance. But then, being God, He does not need my prayers to do so, does He? Why then are my prayers in this regard of any importance to my son's salvation? Certainly, the One Who endured the horrors of the Cross loves my son far more than I do and wishes his salvation much more than I do.

So then we have to factor in my son's free will -- his choice to refuse God and, as I have heard theologians say, God's response of respecting that decision rather than forcing the issue by making my son believe against his will. How then do my prayers factor into this at all if my son has free will?

Do they bend the arm of the Almighty to change my son? Or do they somehow affect my son directly so that he will come to a point of repentance? And if so, again I ask why because God, being All-Powerful, does not need my prayers to affect my son's disposition, does He?

In answer to the last question, the Holy One of Israel is just in all that He does. Our lack of comprehension of His ways in no way implies injustice on His part. We are blind, slow of understanding and dim of sight. God is just.


When it comes to your sons salvation, you need to stop overanalyzing and trying to figure it all out theologically. Just do what our lady said, and follow St. Pio's words, "Pray, hope, and don't worry." You might not like that answer, but it's the best one when it comes to dealing with your son, and will be more efficacious for him. God's grace is more powerful than we think.

I think we have to keep in mind too, that our prayers will be more efficacious the closer we are to Christ (think about the communion of saints, a perfect example). So we all need to not worry, and strive for holiness evermore if we are going to help those we care about.

Radiate happiness when your around him, be joyful when you are around him. Remember, your following Christ, and your son knows that. If he sees your happiness, he will "naturally" be drawn to that. There is no question. And, then Christ will use that to bring him to Himself.

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 Post subject: Re: "Many souls go to hell because no one prays for them"
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:37 am 
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SemperFidelis wrote:
When it comes to your sons salvation, you need to stop over analyzing and trying to figure it all out theologically. Just do what our lady said, and follow St. Pio's words, "Pray, hope, and don't worry." You might not like that answer, but it's the best one when it comes to dealing with your son, and will be more efficacious for him. God's grace is more powerful than we think.

I think we have to keep in mind too, that our prayers will be more efficacious the closer we are to Christ (think about the communion of saints, a perfect example). So we all need to not worry, and strive for holiness evermore if we are going to help those we care about.

Radiate happiness when your around him, be joyful when you are around him. Remember, your following Christ, and your son knows that. If he sees your happiness, he will "naturally" be drawn to that. There is no question. And, then Christ will use that to bring him to Himself.


I think that is the best advice you could give. When it comes to brainpower, why would I want to tackle this great and immense universe and the One Who made it with my puny mind? I couldn't create a man even if I were to be given all the ingredients and a recipe and yet why do I want to figure out God?

Hubris, mostly.


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