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 Post subject: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:40 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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I remember hearing at my Theology studies that the Church in the early centuries was at least suspicious of vegetarians. This was supposedly due to vegetarianism being an integral part of the Gnostic heresy and many ancient Pagan cults. Have you heard about that? Would somebody have sources to back up this claim?

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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:54 am 
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I remember reading somewhere that Clement of Alexandria opposed those who claimed that christians must be
vegetarians, but he was open to the idea of Christians could choose to become vegetarians. (I think the book
I read it in was Henry Chadwick's history of the early Church)

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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:03 pm 
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If anyone says or believes that the flesh of birds or of animals, which has been given for food, not only ought to be abstained from for the chastising of the body, but ought to be abhorred, let him be anathema. (Council of Toledo 447)

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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:03 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:17 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:33 pm 
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We should always be extra cautious around vegetarians.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:22 am 
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Thanks a lot, especially Jason :)

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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:26 pm 
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Ιασων wrote:
If anyone says or believes that the flesh of birds or of animals, which has been given for food, not only ought to be abstained from for the chastising of the body, but ought to be abhorred, let him be anathema. (Council of Toledo 447)
I am not a vegetarian, but this excerpt has to be put in its historical place. The Church today does not forbid anyone to be a vegetarian out of concern for the treatment of animals in factory farms or out of other concerns like antibiotics-use, and so on. I am not a vegetarian, but the Church does not prohibit, or even discourage, a person today from being a vegetarian because of such concerns. Both JPII and Benedict XVI decried the misuse of animals that sometimes happens in the farming industry. The Church today does not forbid anyone to abjure meat for reasons other than chastisement.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:51 pm 
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Ιασων wrote:
If anyone says or believes that the flesh of birds or of animals, which has been given for food, not only ought to be abstained from for the chastising of the body, but ought to be abhorred, let him be anathema. (Council of Toledo 447)

Meat is abhorrent to me. I don't say or believe that meat "ought" to be abhorred, it simply is abhorrent to me. It's not a belief that I have, it's a fact - just like it's a fact that I love papayas. I don't believe that I love papayas, I know that I love papayas. I don't believe that I abhor meat, I know that I abhor meat.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:26 pm 
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torn wrote:
Ιασων wrote:
If anyone says or believes that the flesh of birds or of animals, which has been given for food, not only ought to be abstained from for the chastising of the body, but ought to be abhorred, let him be anathema. (Council of Toledo 447)

Meat is abhorrent to me. I don't say or believe that meat "ought" to be abhorred, it simply is abhorrent to me. It's not a belief that I have, it's a fact - just like it's a fact that I love papayas. I don't believe that I love papayas, I know that I love papayas. I don't believe that I abhor meat, I know that I abhor meat.

There is a difference between disliking something very greatly and abhorring it. You aren't meaning the same thing by that word as is meant in the canon.

What is meant is not a personal taste, preference, choice. What is meant is condemning the eating of flesh as sinful. If you say the practice must be abhorred, you are making a moral judgment about eating meat, which is wrong. If you say I detest meat and won't eat it, then that is your choice, provided you don't need it for life (to refuse to eat something you dislike when necessary for survival would be wrong)

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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:53 am 
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Just to round out the topic: There are certain religious communities that use vegetarianism as a discipline but it comes under the vows of poverty. Carmelites are an example.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Ιασων wrote:
torn wrote:
Ιασων wrote:
If anyone says or believes that the flesh of birds or of animals, which has been given for food, not only ought to be abstained from for the chastising of the body, but ought to be abhorred, let him be anathema. (Council of Toledo 447)

Meat is abhorrent to me. I don't say or believe that meat "ought" to be abhorred, it simply is abhorrent to me. It's not a belief that I have, it's a fact - just like it's a fact that I love papayas. I don't believe that I love papayas, I know that I love papayas. I don't believe that I abhor meat, I know that I abhor meat.

There is a difference between disliking something very greatly and abhorring it. You aren't meaning the same thing by that word as is meant in the canon.

What is meant is not a personal taste, preference, choice. What is meant is condemning the eating of flesh as sinful. If you say the practice must be abhorred, you are making a moral judgment about eating meat, which is wrong. If you say I detest meat and won't eat it, then that is your choice, provided you don't need it for life (to refuse to eat something you dislike when necessary for survival would be wrong)

.

Okay, but the meaning has apparently changed:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abhor
Quote:
ab·hor transitive verb \əb-ˈhȯr, ab-\
: to dislike (someone or something) very much


Full Definition of ABHOR

: to regard with extreme repugnance : loathe


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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:26 pm 
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I still not following how Merriam Webster is the be-all end-all in regards to theological or philosophical terminolog, as if its some infallible norm on words.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:27 pm 
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fine torn,

Si quis ... crediderit, carnes avium seu pecudum, quae ad escam datae sunt, non tantum pro castigatione corporum abstinendas, sed exsecrandas esse, an. s

If anyone shall believe that the fish of birds and animals, which have been given for food, not only should be abstained from for the chastisement of bodies, but ought to be detested, let him be accursed


The thing is the grammar implies obligation, exsecrandas esse

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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:28 pm 
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A Ring Bearer wrote:
I still not following how Merriam Webster is the be-all end-all in regards to theological or philosophical terminolog, as if its some infallible norm on words.

Dictionaries help us to communicate more clearly. The Merriam-Webster dictionary is authoritative. If you don't use the dictionary meaning, how will anyone know what you mean?

For example, if I said that Pope Francis is an awful pope, what would you think?

If you want to communicate clearly, it's important to understand that when we communicate using words, people quite naturally and quite rightly assume that we are using the words according to their contemporary meaning as defined by contemporary authoritative dictionaries.

If we wish to use a word in a sense other than the understood contemporary dictionary definition, then, if we want people to understand what we mean, we need to make it clear that the meaning is not the contemporary dictionary definition. So if I say that Pope Francis is an awful pope, and leave it at that, I'm not communicating clearly, even though I know what I mean. If I wish to communicate clearly to others, then I need to say that I don't mean that Pope Francis is an "awful" pope in the contemporary sense of the word "awful", as defined by a contemporary dictionary, but I mean "awful" in the archaic sense of a pope who inspires awe.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:29 pm 
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Vegetarians do help combat the cucumber plague.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:40 pm 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_in_Judaism
Jewish vegetarianism is the belief that following a vegetarian diet is implied in the Torah. While it is neither required nor prohibited for Jews to eat meat, a number of medieval scholars of Judaism, such as Joseph Albo and Isaac Arama, regard vegetarianism as a moral ideal, not just out of a concern for animal welfare but also the slaughterer. Jewish vegetarians also cite health and environmental reasons for adopting a plant-based diet.

Genesis 1:29 states "And God said: Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree that has seed-yielding fruit—to you it shall be for food." Rabbi Kook speaks of vegetarianism as an ideal, and points to the fact that Adam and Eve did not partake of the flesh of animals as all humans and animals were originally commanded by God to only eat plants. According to Richard H. Schwartz, president of Jewish Vegetarians of North America and author of the book Judaism and Vegetarianism, God's original plan was for mankind to be vegetarian, and that God only later gave permission for man to eat meat in a covenant with Noah (Genesis 9:1–17) as a temporary concession because of Man's weak nature.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:32 pm 
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And we should care what Jews think about the matter why?

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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:55 pm 
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torn wrote:
According to me the Merriam-Webster dictionary is authoritative.


FTFY.

There are informative dictionaries and not-so-informative dictionaries. And common sense would recognize that you speak according to the language of the subject matter at hand and not demand that theological or philosophical terminology necessarily be according to crude generalizations or subject them to semantics.

Do you go to Merriam Webster to learn the definition of the Eucharist? No. You go to the Catechism.

Do I go to Merriam Webster to learn what Lutherans mean by "faith alone"? No. You go to the Augsburg Confession.

If a qualified philosopher in a philosophical discussion is telling you that a word you are using in the context you are using it has a moral meaning, you don't justify yourself with a definition that is not philosophical.

If you don't know or understand the context of the discussion, that it is theological or philosophical, then perhaps you shouldn't participate. Or at least ask.

Jason is one of the clearest communicators on this board and I fully enjoy reading his posts and fully appreciate his views and comments. For as complex as the material can be his dissemination of the material is very easy to follow.

That said...

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 Post subject: Re: Vegetarianism
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:28 pm 
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Yeah, the dictionary doesn't usually help get to the bottom of what they meant. Maybe halfway, but that's still all the way short.

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