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 Post subject: The Catholic Chronicles by Keith Green
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:38 am 
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My parents are staunch protestants. They sent me the Catholic Chronicles by Keith Green and I have been working on a reply/refutation.

Have you heard of these before? What do you think? I'd appreciate any input/ideas, and any feedback on my reply/refutation.

So far I've just replied to the first Chronicle. I am currently working on the second.

Sincerely,
CC Evans

P.S. You can see the original Chronicles at: http://www.gracegems.org/7/catholic_chronicles.htm


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:45 am 
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Well, you might want to mention that the word 'Eucharist' is from the Greek word (as he says) but it is also a Greek word used to replace a Hebrew word -- todah. And that the todah offering has a long history in Hebrew liturgy and has nothing to do with the 'giving thanks' which is an integral part of the Passover meal ritual.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:47 am 
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And it's a bit of a strawman to use 'transubstantiation' to attach the Real Presence since the term 'transubstantiation' is used to describe as best we can the mystery of the Real Presence. He's pretty much all wet once he starts there and tries to impose his false premise on the doctrines of the Church.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:32 am 
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Tom Terrific wrote:
And it's a bit of a strawman to use 'transubstantiation' to attach the Real Presence since the term 'transubstantiation' is used to describe as best we can the mystery of the Real Presence. He's pretty much all wet once he starts there and tries to impose his false premise on the doctrines of the Church.


True. Thanks for the insights.

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ἄξιος εἶ, ὁ κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν, λαβεῖν τὴν δόξαν καὶ τὴν τιμὴν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν, ὅτι σὺ ἔκτισας τὰ πάντα, καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν. Ἀποκάλυψις 4:11


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:44 am 
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In Heb. 8:1, it says that Jesus is our most high priest. In vs. 3, it says that the duties of the high priest is to offer sacrifice. Jesus is both priest and sacrifice, since He has nothing higher than himself to offer. He is offering himself perpetually as it tells us in Rev. 5:6, He is the lamb on the throne in heaven, "standing as if slain". The only way anyone could stand as if slain, is if he is a living sacrifice.

What is present to Jesus, He can make present to us, who are members of His body.

BTW, Melody Green, musician Keith Green's widow, has withdrawn the anti-Catholic tracts her husband had distributed in his last years. (The tracts are critiqued in Catholicism and Fundamentalism, 99-104).

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:44 am 
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anawim wrote:
In Heb. 8:1, it says that Jesus is our most high priest. In vs. 3, it says that the duties of the high priest is to offer sacrifice. Jesus is both priest and sacrifice, since He has nothing higher than himself to offer. He is offering himself perpetually as it tells us in Rev. 5:6, He is the lamb on the throne in heaven, "standing as if slain". The only way anyone could stand as if slain, is if he is a living sacrifice.

What is present to Jesus, He can make present to us, who are members of His body.

BTW, Melody Green, musician Keith Green's widow, has withdrawn the anti-Catholic tracts her husband had distributed in his last years. (The tracts are critiqued in Catholicism and Fundamentalism, 99-104).


Very interesting. I will check out that book, too. I didn't want to be reinventing the wheel, as I think these have been around for some time.

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ἄξιος εἶ, ὁ κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν, λαβεῖν τὴν δόξαν καὶ τὴν τιμὴν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν, ὅτι σὺ ἔκτισας τὰ πάντα, καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν. Ἀποκάλυψις 4:11


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:47 am 
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Gee we didn't get our beliefs about the Eucharist till 831 AD. Gee no mention that St Paul beleives it!
This is grossly inaccurate no mention of St Ignatius of Anticoch, the Didache, St Justin, St Irenaeus, etc etc etc They instead point to pagansim gee did the saints I mention die for the catholic or pagan faith I wonder? This is why I don't trust protestant websites they so grossly neglect the obvious scholarship that they discredit themselves instantly. They just assume that no protestant will do the research themselves and reath church history for themselves. Sadly many don't and rely on what they have been told for thier reference but if a protestant does his homework he will quickly discover that many protestant websites are pure bunk.
I aslo heard that Keith Green himself admitted his tracts were anti-catholic and shoddy in research retracting his former stance. But people will continue to use bad research if it supports their points of view. Hence why people still use the Jack Chick tracts even though they have been discredited by protestants.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:56 am 
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tobit wrote:
Gee we didn't get our beliefs about the Eucharist till 831 AD. Gee no mention that St Paul beleives it!
This is grossly inaccurate no mention of St Ignatius of Anticoch, the Didache, St Justin, St Irenaeus, etc etc etc They instead point to pagansim gee did the saints I mention die for the catholic or pagan faith I wonder? This is why I don't trust protestant websites they so grossly neglect the obvious scholarship that they discredit themselves instantly. They just assume that no protestant will do the research themselves and reath church history for themselves. Sadly many don't and rely on what they have been told for thier reference but if a protestant does his homework he will quickly discover that many protestant websites are pure bunk.
I aslo heard that Keith Green himself admitted his tracts were anti-catholic and shoddy in research retracting his former stance. But people will continue to use bad research if it supports their points of view. Hence why people still use the Jack Chick tracts even though they have been discredited by protestants.


Yeah, some of it is easy to refute, but it is good rhetoric so people tend to buy into it rather than do research. I suppose I normally see gullibility as a sign of a trusting nature, but to publish a topic without the proper research is unconscionable.

Are any of you aware of a scholastically viable Protestant work on Catholicism? By a scholar like Jaroslav Pelikan?

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ἄξιος εἶ, ὁ κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν, λαβεῖν τὴν δόξαν καὶ τὴν τιμὴν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν, ὅτι σὺ ἔκτισας τὰ πάντα, καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν. Ἀποκάλυψις 4:11


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:10 am 
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YOu could get Pelikan's historical works. Especially the first two works in his history series.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:21 pm 
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The Catholic Chronicles wrote:
The historian Tertullian tells us that when this doctrine first began to be taught in the Middle Ages, that the priests took great care that no crumb should fall lest the body of Jesus be hurt, or even eaten by a mouse or a dog!


Is there a post-medieval Church historian named Tertullian? The only Tertullian prominent in Church history that i have ever heard of is the one from A.D. 155-230. Seems that one is living a little early to comment on medieval Christianity.

BTW is this author the same Keith Green the deceased Jesus-Movement singer?

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:31 pm 
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CC Evans wrote:
Yeah, some of it is easy to refute, but it is good rhetoric so people tend to buy into it rather than do research. I suppose I normally see gullibility as a sign of a trusting nature, but to publish a topic without the proper research is unconscionable.



Which is more or less why these tracts were withdrawn from publication I think, his wife realized that they were unfair.



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Are any of you aware of a scholastically viable Protestant work on Catholicism? By a scholar like Jaroslav Pelikan?


I am not sure what you mean by 'scholarly viable', but if you want a work that assesses Catholicism from an evangelical Protestant point of view and which does a reasonably good job of being fair and objective, then I recommened the book 'Is the Reformation over?: An Evangelical Scholar Evaluates Contemporary Catholicism' by Mark Noll.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:49 pm 
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Doomlock Holmes wrote:

Which is more or less why these tracts were withdrawn from publication I think, his wife realized that they were unfair.


So it was Keith Green the singer. I have a degree of admiration for the guy, but he was no scholar.

BTW stumbled on this while researching KG's Catholic Chronicles. It's awesome.

http://www.atruechurch.info/home.html

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:57 pm 
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thebyronicman wrote:
So it was Keith Green the singer.



The very same! :D

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:15 pm 
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Keith would have made a great Catholic. He loved the Lord, and he was passionately devoted to the pursuit of holiness.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:25 pm 
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thebyronicman wrote:
BTW stumbled on this while researching KG's Catholic Chronicles. It's awesome.

http://www.atruechurch.info/home.html

This IS very strange. Interesting to know that the 'one true church' has 40 members.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:10 pm 
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:fyi:

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" They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]). Ignatius of Antioch


Last edited by tobit on Wed May 17, 2006 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:11 pm 
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CC Evans wrote:
tobit wrote:
Gee we didn't get our beliefs about the Eucharist till 831 AD. Gee no mention that St Paul beleives it!
This is grossly inaccurate no mention of St Ignatius of Anticoch, the Didache, St Justin, St Irenaeus, etc etc etc They instead point to pagansim gee did the saints I mention die for the catholic or pagan faith I wonder? This is why I don't trust protestant websites they so grossly neglect the obvious scholarship that they discredit themselves instantly. They just assume that no protestant will do the research themselves and reath church history for themselves. Sadly many don't and rely on what they have been told for thier reference but if a protestant does his homework he will quickly discover that many protestant websites are pure bunk.
I aslo heard that Keith Green himself admitted his tracts were anti-catholic and shoddy in research retracting his former stance. But people will continue to use bad research if it supports their points of view. Hence why people still use the Jack Chick tracts even though they have been discredited by protestants.


Yeah, some of it is easy to refute, but it is good rhetoric so people tend to buy into it rather than do research. I suppose I normally see gullibility as a sign of a trusting nature, but to publish a topic without the proper research is unconscionable.

Are any of you aware of a scholastically viable Protestant work on Catholicism? By a scholar like Jaroslav Pelikan?


Pelikan is an Orthodox Christian so your likely to get a more fair shake from his but lets face it most evangelical and fundamentalsit protestnats warp catholic history. Several Anglican scholars like JND Kelley and Chadwick are for the most part in their accessement of church history. But then again they are not evangelicals.

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 Post subject: Re: The Catholic Chronicles by Keith Green
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:24 pm 
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CC Evans wrote:
My parents are staunch protestants. They sent me the Catholic Chronicles by Keith Green and I have been working on a reply/refutation.

Have you heard of these before? What do you think? I'd appreciate any input/ideas, and any feedback on my reply/refutation.

So far I've just replied to the first Chronicle. I am currently working on the second.

Sincerely,
CC Evans

P.S. You can see the original Chronicles at: http://www.gracegems.org/7/catholic_chronicles.htm


I posted this in the Beach Boy thread in the Pub:

That is a great point, I've been exposed to Christian Rock for a good while (1981) and there are a few notables such as Kieth Green who came out with the "Catholic Chronicles". This was an Anti-Catholic publication whom one time friend, John Michael Talbot, tried to reason with Kieth Green. Green would not back down and the two had it out during a christian music festival. John Michael Talbot would offer his guitar as a peace offering. Unfortunitely and tragically, later that night Keith and two daughters were killed in a plane crash. It was very sad.

John Michael Talbot is a convert to the Catholic Faith and had a history of anti-Catholic beliefs. I can see how Keith would have lost contact when John became Catholic. John Michael Talbot would become an accomplished Christian musician for the Catholic Faith. I had the great opportunity to meet with him at Euricka Springs Arkansas at his Little Portions community. It was a great time as we spoke about music. I asked him if he felt that it was important for him to become Catholic. He replied yes. He gave me some great advice and cautioned me to love those whom I speak against. I must be willing to die for them. The idea being that God can change their condition.

DC Talk in the video, "Jesus Freak" is strongly pro-Catholic. I can go on and on with this, but I will agree that if someone is pushing something anti-Catholic, I would view them in the same way as any secular band who pushes anti-Catholic lyrics. Sex outside of marriage is anti-Catholic and pro-hedonism. Living in America today, this is common place! We have allowed it!

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:26 pm 
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thebyronicman wrote:
The Catholic Chronicles wrote:
The historian Tertullian tells us that when this doctrine first began to be taught in the Middle Ages, that the priests took great care that no crumb should fall lest the body of Jesus be hurt, or even eaten by a mouse or a dog!


Is there a post-medieval Church historian named Tertullian? The only Tertullian prominent in Church history that i have ever heard of is the one from A.D. 155-230. Seems that one is living a little early to comment on medieval Christianity.

BTW is this author the same Keith Green the deceased Jesus-Movement singer?


Yes!

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 1:03 pm 
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Keith had three of his children with him in the plane that crashed. His wife, Melody, was pregnant with their fourth child.

One of the contributions that Keith made to Contemporary Christian Music was his hard-hitting lyrics, such as "Asleep in the Light," "How Can They Live Without Jesus," "My Eyes Are Dry," and others that defied a growing popular cult of belief, that God wants us to be "happy" without demanding anything of us at all.

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